Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Islington Express Bus]

Similarly, while Ontario Line may sound good, why have the terminus at the exhibition grounds? Why couldn’t have been a more strategic terminus, like say Jane station or Dundas West station? It’s a real missed opportunity there (something you can always say about the city)

The Yonge Line is great, but why not have it end in Newmarket instead? 🤔 Real missed opportunity here. And I can't believe they never thought to end Line 2 in Mississauga!

 

[lenaitch]

The Yonge Line is great, but why not have it end in Newmarket instead? 🤔 Real missed opportunity here. And I can't believe they never thought to end Line 2 in Mississauga!

Is there a great big pot of money somebody has been hiding?

 

[afransen]

Is there a great big pot of money somebody has been hiding?

I think they're joking.

 

[lenaitch]

I think they're joking.

Perhaps. One never can tell with some posts.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Slightly OT but I wonder if the fact that our railways are privately owned vs publicly owned roads contributes to the amount of commercial traffic on our roadways. If railways were made public as roads are would more long distance freight move to railways vs road?

 

[afransen]

Slightly OT but I wonder if the fact that our railways are privately owned vs publicly owned roads contributes to the amount of commercial traffic on our roadways. If railways were made public as roads are would more long distance freight move to railways vs road?

You mean if rails were free to use? It would likely be pandemonium.

 

[mistersg1]

The Yonge Line is great, but why not have it end in Newmarket instead? 🤔 Real missed opportunity here. And I can't believe they never thought to end Line 2 in Mississauga!

Really, you’re going to compare a hypothetical extension of Yonge to Hwy 9 (many reasons why this is a theoretical stupid idea) to something that was proposed many years ago in the past. Something we used to refer to as a “Downtown Relief Line”.

Obviously, the Ontario line reaching a spot like Dundas West allows access to the Ontario line from the west side. It can’t even be compared to a nonsensical and impractical Yonge Line extension to Newmarket. That’d be one heck of a long ride downtown from up there (and I think the ride from Highway 407 station is really long)

 

[mistersg1]

Slightly OT but I wonder if the fact that our railways are privately owned vs publicly owned roads contributes to the amount of commercial traffic on our roadways. If railways were made public as roads are would more long distance freight move to railways vs road?

How far do you consider long distance? Would Kingston be long distance in your eye?

Even with more movement of long distance freight, there is obviously going to be a large amount of goods moved by drivers who do “city work”. For instance, a major Loblaws terminal to deliver food to the stores is in Cambridge on Maple Grove Road, at least with my experience in the past, GTA stores, some downtown received loads from this terminal.

This is just one example and there’s possibly many I can think of, like Metro’s big terminals at Dundas and Hwy 427.

 

[LemonCondo]

The Yonge Line is great, but why not have it end in Newmarket instead? 🤔 Real missed opportunity here. And I can't believe they never thought to end Line 2 in Mississauga!

Someday...

In other news, why does everything have to be either a "glorified streetcar" or a "proper subway" in Toronto? Can we get with the program and build the best of both worlds, elevated? Cheaper then tunnels and you still get grade separation. Maybe if Line 7 (I know...) was built elevated (it won't...) we could get around to fixing Line 5s dumb little surface section and have one continuous grade separated line across the city. Finch West, I worry lest. I see it more of a local line, and I have also seen videos of it going pretty fast. If they plan on going crosstown with that as well it will be a diffrent story. My hope is that Toronto gets out of its "surface running LRT, no it's not a streetcar guys!" phase and build "more Ontario Line". More automated light metros (please don't start again because I will die on this hill) and hopefully more cost-effective elevated portions.

 

[Undead]

Elevated light metro lines would be a good solution in many areas across the city.

and I have also seen videos of it going pretty fast.

I think it was footage of the surface Crosstown and everyone was pleasantly surprised at how brisk it was.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

How far do you consider long distance? Would Kingston be long distance in your eye?

Even with more movement of long distance freight, there is obviously going to be a large amount of goods moved by drivers who do “city work”. For instance, a major Loblaws terminal to deliver food to the stores is in Cambridge on Maple Grove Road, at least with my experience in the past, GTA stores, some downtown received loads from this terminal.

This is just one example and there’s possibly many I can think of, like Metro’s big terminals at Dundas and Hwy 427.

My point is that the cost of using roadways is essentially zero while the cost to use railways (assuming CP or CN let you use their lines) is significant. This leads to freight favoring road transportation.

So the trying to compare the cost of road transport vs rail transport on a per km basis and where one is more economically viable vs the other is pointless

 

[mistersg1]

Someday...
View attachment 431312


In other news, why does everything have to be either a "glorified streetcar" or a "proper subway" in Toronto? Can we get with the program and build the best of both worlds, elevated? Cheaper then tunnels and you still get grade separation. Maybe if Line 7 (I know...) was built elevated (it won't...) we could get around to fixing Line 5s dumb little surface section and have one continuous grade separated line across the city. Finch West, I worry lest. I see it more of a local line, and I have also seen videos of it going pretty fast. If they plan on going crosstown with that as well it will be a diffrent story. My hope is that Toronto gets out of its "surface running LRT, no it's not a streetcar guys!" phase and build "more Ontario Line". More automated light metros (please don't start again because I will die on this hill) and hopefully more cost-effective elevated portions.

The problem lies in Finch West and the eastern portion of Eglinton being an actual glorified streetcar.

Suppose you ran the planned vehicles for Finch and Eglinton on the Scarborough RT route, obviously we would understand that the latter wouldn’t be a glorified streetcar because of 100% total grade separation.

When the LRTs tnat are built in Toronto are not light metros but literal glorified streetcars, then that’s why they are criticized as being as such.

That’s the problem with LRT in a nutshell, the terminology I mean. Unlike a subway/metro system, which we all know what one is. Or a commuter rail system which we know what one is. LRT on its own doesn’t define what kind of service level it has, it can theoretically be something like the Harbourfront route, or it could be something that’s even quicker than a subway. The LRTs planned in Toronto for Transit City except for Eglinton were all basically extensions of the St Clair or Spadina concept, and that’s why they can rightfully be referred to as a “glorified streetcar”.

 

[wopchop]

My point is that the cost of using roadways is essentially zero while the cost to use railways (assuming CP or CN let you use their lines) is significant. This leads to freight favoring road transportation.

So the trying to compare the cost of road transport vs rail transport on a per km basis and where one is more economically viable vs the other is pointless

The cost for companies to use the road is not zero. If they have a fleet, then they have the wages, insurance, maintenance, overhead etc. of running trucks to consider. From that, they know the average cost per load. If they contract out all (or some) of their loads, then there is the cost from the freight broker.

 

[just east of the creek]

The cost for companies to use the road is not zero. If they have a fleet, then they have the wages, insurance, maintenance, overhead etc. of running trucks to consider. From that, they know the average cost per load. If they contract out all (or some) of their loads, then there is the cost from the freight broker.

The cost is certainly not net zero, and getting more so. it that still begs a question - why do railways not move more truck based freight Toronto to Montreal, Moncton, Chicago, Winnipeg for example. Turn more long distance trucking into regional trucking.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The cost for companies to use the road is not zero. If they have a fleet, then they have the wages, insurance, maintenance, overhead etc. of running trucks to consider. From that, they know the average cost per load. If they contract out all (or some) of their loads, then there is the cost from the freight broker.

The cost for companies to use the road is not zero. If they have a fleet, then they have the wages, insurance, maintenance, overhead etc. of running trucks to consider. From that, they know the average cost per load. If they contract out all (or some) of their loads, then there is the cost from the freight broker.

You are missing my point and I'm not sure if it's intentional or otherwise. So, moving on...