Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Dan416]

Is that right? It's funny, "Hurontario" sounds like such a quirky, kind of modern portmanteau that I always assumed it was something they came up with and slapped on the more pedantic, boring, it'll-due-till-we-think-of-something-better-sounding "Highway 10". It's interesting to hear that it's in fact considerably older.

I also was surprised by the name being so old. It does sound surprisingly modern.

 

[nfitz]

Is that right? It's funny, "Hurontario" sounds like such a quirky, kind of modern portmanteau that I always assumed it was something they came up with and slapped on the more pedantic, boring, it'll-due-till-we-think-of-something-better-sounding "Highway 10". It's interesting to hear that it's in fact considerably older.

I'd assumed that everyone knew it was a really old name. It's odd that it's hard to find history of the road on-line. It sed to be called Huron Street in Port Credit in the mid-1800s.

Here's an 1878 plan of the town of Edmonton (south east corner of Mayfield and Hurontario - I believe it's now called Tim Horton's) - you can see it was clearly labelled Hurontario Street:

I think the ROW in the top-right, is what is now called Valley View Road.

Perhaps the lack-of-awareness of the history of the name explains what I thought was the odd notion of abandoning an ancient road name, to replace it with the relatively-recent and short-lived Ontario highway number.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I thought a number of roads in the region were named in this way. Hurontario connected Lake Ontario to Lake Huron. There's Torbarrie road that connected Toronto to Barrie (before the 400 came along, a Torbram which connected Toronto to Brampton, etc, etc.

 

[adma]

Perhaps the lack-of-awareness of the history of the name explains what I thought was the odd notion of abandoning an ancient road name, to replace it with the relatively-recent and short-lived Ontario highway number.

What do you mean short-lived? Highway 10 was basically intact from 1920 until the late 90s.

And besides, it wasn't as if the name was "abandoned"; The Hurontario and Hwy 10 labels basically coexisted, much like Yonge Street and Hwy 11 in Toronto and York County/Region...

 

[nfitz]

What do you mean short-lived? Highway 10 was basically intact from 1920 until the late 90s.

I said relatively short-lived. I didn't think Hurontario south of Highway 7 was added to Highway 10 until 1937. And it only lasted to 1997. That's 60 years of the 200 years or so that Hurontario has been around.

The Highway 10 numbering was relatively short-lived.

And besides, it wasn't as if the name was "abandoned"; The Hurontario and Hwy 10 labels basically coexisted, much like Yonge Street and Hwy 11 in Toronto and York County/Region...

Oh, I know. But there are some here who would seem to advocate giving strangers in Mississauga directions, by trying to tell them to go to Highway 10 ... which of course they can't find, as it's not signed at most intersections. Highway 10 is dead, and is becoming a memory of those of a certain age.

When was the last time one referred to Highway 20 in Montreal West Island by it's old name - Highway 2?

 

[adma]

I said relatively short-lived. I didn't think Hurontario south of Highway 7 was added to Highway 10 until 1937. And it only lasted to 1997. That's 60 years of the 200 years or so that Hurontario has been around.

The Highway 10 numbering was relatively short-lived.

I don't know about "added to"; all the King's Highways site says is "later", and that the Middle Road interchange was completed in 1937. But all the same, those were 60 plus important years in the corridor's identity. For you to brush that interval off reminds me of people who brush off Art Moderne because it's "not of Governor Simcoe's time".

And the way you're framing the Highway 10 numbering as a de facto "negation" of the name "Hurontario" is absolutely asinine. Look: numbered highways was the near-universal Ontario and North American norm in the 20th century. None of this involved "negating" existing "historic" corridor names; all that was involved was guiding and forming a matrix for the auto traveller. Which at worst might "overlap" existing names. The only non-numbered provincial highway in Ontario was the QEW. Anyone who'd think that "Highway 10" was an automobile-age injustice to historic "Hurontario" (or a dispensible blip of negligible significance, kind of like accretions to a historic structure that are removed upon "restoration") is simply totally ignorant of the way highway systems worked in Ontario and beyond.

Oh, I know. But there are some here who would seem to advocate giving strangers in Mississauga directions, by trying to tell them to go to Highway 10 ... which of course they can't find, as it's not signed at most intersections. Highway 10 is dead, and is becoming a memory of those of a certain age.

Yeah, maybe there's a touch of anachronism; I mean, on the functional grounds you describe, I'd obviously advocate "Hurontario" over "Hwy 10", too. But it's also proof that the Hwy 10-ness of Hurontario doesn't brush off so easily, much like the Hwy 2-ness of the Lakeshore and Kingston Rd, the Hwy 11-ness of Yonge, et al. It may be a "memory", but it's not necessarily "dead".

Then again, what you're possibly illuminating is that not just Hwy 10, but an entire geography according to a matrix of highway numbers "is becoming a memory of those of a certain age". And not just in Ontario. I've said it before: it's probably more common among those over 60, those who swore by their Rand McNallys and their state and provincial maps and who had more of a taste of pre-Interstate, pre-400-series romantic motor-age "discovery". Whereas those who are younger have a more utilitarian outlook, conditioned more by superhighways and sprawl and back-seat "are we there yet" tedium; for them, all that Rand McNally or Route 66 romance is but a drudgy old-timer pain in the neck. And the younger they are, the more their mental geography's defined by GPS-based sources rather than ye olde maps and atlases.

I may be younger; but as a childhood map-reader and subsequent historically-minded road-tripper, I probably have more in common with the older generation--while judging by your lack of "attachment", nfitz, you weren't, and you aren't. Which is something of a pity.

When was the last time one referred to Highway 20 in Montreal West Island by it's old name - Highway 2?

But at least when Quebec renumbered its highway system, it was top-to-bottom in an era and manner which all made sense--unklike the haphazard Harris-era downloads. (Even if the latter spoke more to--and illuminated the pitfalls of--our GPS-based "post-numbered-highway" era.)

 

[nfitz]

And the way you're framing the Highway 10 numbering as a de facto "negation" of the name "Hurontario" is absolutely asinine.

What are you talking about. Hurontario was more prominent than 10 in the 1980s and early 1990s when I used to drive up and down there.

I may be younger; but as a childhood map-reader and subsequent historically-minded road-tripper, I probably have more in common with the older generation--while judging by your lack of "attachment", nfitz, you weren't, and you aren't. Which is something of a pity.

Hard to be attached to something that changes so frequently ... every couple of decades or so. I've never understood this obsession some people seem to have to number highways. No sooner is some highway is proposed and you see people jumping up and down trying to number it ...

But at least when Quebec renumbered its highway system, it was top-to-bottom in an era and manner which all made sense ...

All made sense? Try driving the 20 through Montreal - they can't decide where to put it. And what's with all the changes from 158 to 50 and back to 158? And the 55 ... really - is that someone's idea of a bad drug trip or something? And the 40 and 73 through Quebec city? And does using the same highway number for different highways make sense? How many 440s and 540s are there? And then there's the 1000 mile missing piece of 138 ... okay, maybe not 1,000 miles, but the detour I had to drive through Labrador sure felt like it ...

 

[adma]

Hard to be attached to something that changes so frequently ... every couple of decades or so. I've never understood this obsession some people seem to have to number highways. No sooner is some highway is proposed and you see people jumping up and down trying to number it ...

It isn't about obsessing with current-day fantasy highway numbering. It's about respecting historic highway numbering.

You gotta realize, nfitz: by the way you're describing your POV, you're entirely of the "utilitarian generation". You have no "Route 66" in you. The romantic notion of deliberately driving across Southern Ontario using Old Hwy 2 (and let's not niggle over routings--heck, even Route 66 has its "alternate" historical routings) is meaningless to you.

 

[nfitz]

It isn't about obsessing with current-day fantasy highway numbering. It's about respecting historic highway numbering.

Respecting historic highway numbering ... surely the location and the history of the area is far more interesting than a non-physical designation. We just knocked down some historic service centres, without a peep. The numbers are still there for anyone who wishes, simply with a map.

A personal attack over highway numbering? Really?

 

[gweed123]

It isn't about obsessing with current-day fantasy highway numbering. It's about respecting historic highway numbering.

You gotta realize, nfitz: by the way you're describing your POV, you're entirely of the "utilitarian generation". You have no "Route 66" in you. The romantic notion of deliberately driving across Southern Ontario using Old Hwy 2 (and let's not niggle over routings--heck, even Route 66 has its "alternate" historical routings) is meaningless to you.

What I think would be kind of neat is creating a separate "historic highway" shield and designation (maybe a light brown or something), that could be overlaid on top of any "official" designation. I'm thinking this specifically for the old Highway 2, Highway 11 (Yonge St), Highway 10, and maybe a couple others.

Nothing that shows up officially, but for people who want to drive the "historic route", it would be clearly signed as such. I did the Highway 2 drive from Burlington to Ottawa (or technically Prescott) a while ago, and there are a lot of turns on that route, with some inconsistent signage. Having a consistent way-finding shield would be very helpful.

 

[nfitz]

... and there are a lot of turns on that route, with some inconsistent signage. Having a consistent way-finding shield would be very helpful.

It wasn't unusual to miss a turn, even when it was consistently numbered.

I'd be concerned though, that unnecessary signage isn't optimal for wayfinding. I'm quite in favour of a simplified numbering scheme province-wide, no matter who owns the road. England has this ... A and B roads are clearly and consistently marked through towns and cities, despite ownership varying between national, county, and city agencies. But presumably if we ever went this way, it would be a complete re-do of the current schemes, other than the 400-series.

I guess I'm more interested in way-finding, than the old numbering scheme in itself.

 

[gweed123]

It wasn't unusual to miss a turn, even when it was consistently numbered.

I'd be concerned though, that unnecessary signage isn't optimal for wayfinding. I'm quite in favour of a simplified numbering scheme province-wide, no matter who owns the road. England has this ... A and B roads are clearly and consistently marked through towns and cities, despite ownership varying between national, county, and city agencies. But presumably if we ever went this way, it would be a complete re-do of the current schemes, other than the 400-series.

I guess I'm more interested in way-finding, than the old numbering scheme in itself.

I would definitely be in favour of that, although it would be a complicated endeavour, even more complicated than switching everything to metric, because it would involve recreating virtually every road map of Ontario.

Although, if it were to happen, I would like to see something like this adopted:

1-99: Major non-expressway highways (mainly currently or formerly provincially-owned roads like Highway 7, Highway 11, Highway 5, etc)
100-199: Major county/regional roads (for example Guelph Line is Halton Highway 1)
200-399: Secondary county/regional roads
400-499: 400-series highways

That way, you could tell just by looking at the highway number exactly what type of road you were in for. If you were driving on a 1-99 route, you know that it's a pretty well maintained road. Likewise for most 100-199 routes. 200-399 routes would be hit or miss, depending on the county.

Of course, another option is to just abolish the 400-series highway numbering system all together and just number them as part of the 1-99 routes, like almost every other Province does.

 

[Transportfan]

...the Hwy 10-ness of Hurontario doesn't brush off so easily, much like the Hwy 2-ness of the Lakeshore and Kingston Rd, the Hwy 11-ness of Yonge, et al. It may be a "memory", but it's not necessarily "dead".

Lakeshore, Kingston Rd, and Yonge, never had a "highwayness" in the minds of people to brush off in the first place. Not in Toronto anyways.

 

[adma]

I guess I'm more interested in way-finding, than the old numbering scheme in itself.

Exactly what I mean: utilitarianism displacing golden-age-of-motoring romance. Yet there's a reason why there's this website exists: at least from about the 1920s through much of the 1970s, the Kings Highway network, quirks and all, was Ontario's Holy Matrix Of The Road. If you were "road-conditioned and "map-conditioned" in that era, you knew your King's Highways (and Secondary Highways, and maybe even those Northern Ontario Tertiaries). (And maybe the dilemma today is that, considering that road maps and atlases are technically geared t/w those of driving age, today's bottom threshold of those so conditioned is 50 plus--and probably 60 plus if you want to factor out the era-straddlers.)

Though interestingly enough, while it's easy to blame 400-series supremacy for the eclipse of "King's Highway consciousness", perhaps even more blame ought to go to the emergence of comprehensive county and regional road networks in the 60s and 70s--which, over time, were "improved" to often be of equal or even greater quality than the provincial network. In a way, the King's Highway system was designed for an era when, as intercity connectors, they were the "only game in town"; but by the 70s, it was clear that the playing field was being levelled. Yet even when numbered, county and regional roads never accrued that "Holy Matrix" mythos (in part because their networks were localized and often contradictory, rather than something sublimely province-wide); and all too often they became infinitely more familiar by name (say, Airport Road) than by number. (It's also why you're less likely to see a site devoted to them a la the King's Highway site.) And they weren't "acknowledged" on official Ontario road maps until the 1980s--and even then, being expressed through grey/black lines rather than red made them appear deceptively inferior-grade. (Which, in reality, might just as well have reflected the anachronism of traditional road maps and atlases--the "new scale" being better expressed through the more "European" MapArt approach, and ultimately through Google and GPS.)

And I think that what subliminally resulted from the rise of county/regional road networks is that, to those conditioned from the 70s onward, all those numbering systems for roads that were by this time effectively identical in grade cancelled each other out. No longer part of a dominant matrix, the typical King's Highway became just another number, indistinguishable from the rest. With the mythos gone, there was no longer reason or motivation to "engage" to the idea of Hwy 10, Hwy 2, etc as something "larger than life". The Holy Matrix has become as much part of a never-personally-known-or-experienced past as streetcar and interurban systems in many a North American metropolis...and unfortunately, nfitz, your dismissiveness re the "Highway 10-ness" of Hurontario reflects that modern-day ignorance.

Yet, in a way, I'm acknowledging the "new order" by describing the present reality as less "highway-based" than "arterial-based": a comprehensive Ontario network of navigable roads beyond what the old King's Highway-eers could have dreamed of. In which case, I think what ideally should have been done was to essentially "fix in place" the existing King's Highway network in the 80s or so--almost like a readymade "heritage network"--and for their "status" to be retained even through downloaded responsibility. (I think it works like that in Massachusetts currently.) Because otherwise, by that time, the network's purpose was obsolete. However, as that was not done, and the network wound up eviscerated through downloads in the 90s--may I suggest that if Ontario engages in any Great Renumbering, the idea of the "King's Highway" be retired--shield/crown signage and all. It's already been too gravely injured; put what remains of the network out of its misery.

 

[adma]

Lakeshore, Kingston Rd, and Yonge, never had a "highwayness" in the minds of people to brush off in the first place. Not in Toronto anyways.

Wanna bet? When it comes to those conditioned by maps such as these, I'd definitely argue otherwise.

Of course, if you were born after 1971 (the date of the map), I'd understand your ignorance.