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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

Haljackey

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I still don't think there should be tolls on the 412 or 418 until you are 100% going to the 407.

Going northbound, tolling shouldn't begin until after the Hwy 7/Winchester Road exit on the 412 and the Taunton Road exit on the 418.
 

innsertnamehere

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I still don't think there should be tolls on the 412 or 418 until you are 100% going to the 407.

Going northbound, tolling shouldn't begin until after the Hwy 7/Winchester Road exit on the 412 and the Taunton Road exit on the 418.
It's not crazy expensive - I use the 412 occasionally to get to Highway 7. It costs like $2, and is 5-10 minutes faster than taking Lakeridge depending on traffic. It's either pay $2 and get to highway 7 quickly and easily, or use Lakeridge and slog up there at 75km/h behind some dump truck and hit every damn red light.
 

afransen

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I still don't think there should be tolls on the 412 or 418 until you are 100% going to the 407.

Going northbound, tolling shouldn't begin until after the Hwy 7/Winchester Road exit on the 412 and the Taunton Road exit on the 418.
Why no toll?
 

terag51

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I still don't think there should be tolls on the 412 or 418 until you are 100% going to the 407.

Going northbound, tolling shouldn't begin until after the Hwy 7/Winchester Road exit on the 412 and the Taunton Road exit on the 418.
Why no toll?
I agree that there should be no tolls on the 412 or 418.

One of the arguments made is that it is unfair to Durham residents that they have to pay to drive on the 412/418, while the residents of other regions don’t have to pay to use their North/South links, ex. Hwys 410, 427, 404 are free to drive on. Unfortunately, the province does not seem willing to remove the 412/418 tolls, and most people looking to head north of the 401 will continue to exit at Lakeridge rather the 412 because no one wants to pay the toll and rightfully so.

It is really a shame to see these brand new toll highways almost empty... so empty to the point that if they closed one lane in each direction, it would probably still be under capacity.
 

Northern Light

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I agree that there should be no tolls on the 412 or 418.

One of the arguments made is that it is unfair to Durham residents that they have to pay to drive on the 412/418, while the residents of other regions don’t have to pay to use their North/South links, ex. Hwys 410, 427, 404 are free to drive on. Unfortunately, the province does not seem willing to remove the 412/418 tolls, and most people looking to head north of the 401 will continue to exit at Lakeridge rather the 412 because no one wants to pay the toll and rightfully so.

It is really a shame to see these brand new toll highways almost empty...

The answer to this unfairness is not to remove the tolls, its to add tolls to all the other 400-series highways and the DVP/Gardiner/QEW as well.

***

Neither 412 nor 418 should have been built; but that's a different matter, and I'm afraid we're stuck w/them for a few decades.
 

terag51

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The answer to this unfairness is not to remove the tolls, its to add tolls to all the other 400-series highways and the DVP/Gardiner/QEW as well.

***

Neither 412 nor 418 should have been built; but that's a different matter, and I'm afraid we're stuck w/them for a few decades.
I agree that the 418 maybe didn’t need to be built, the 412 definitely needed to be built.

I have the complete opposite stance, of that I think that toll roads should not even exist in this province. Tolls for a big bridge or tunnel... somewhat understandable. Other than that, I don’t think it’s appropriate. People already pay taxes to pay for our roads, why should anyone have to pay a road toll?

I would love to see the elimination of tolls on Hwys 412/418/407, including the rip up of the Hwy 407 ETR contract (but that is a pipe dream).
 

afransen

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The answer to this unfairness is not to remove the tolls, its to add tolls to all the other 400-series highways and the DVP/Gardiner/QEW as well.

***

Neither 412 nor 418 should have been built; but that's a different matter, and I'm afraid we're stuck w/them for a few decades.
At most they should have been arterials, with no direct access. They could have had periodic intersections and substantially reduced costs.
 

afransen

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I agree that the 418 maybe didn’t need to be built, the 412 definitely needed to be built.

I have the complete opposite stance, of that I think that toll roads should not even exist in this province. Tolls for a big bridge or tunnel... somewhat understandable. Other than that, I don’t think it’s appropriate. People already pay taxes to pay for our roads, why should anyone have to pay a road toll?

I would love to see the elimination of tolls on Hwys 412/418/407, including the rip up of the Hwy 407 ETR contract (but that is a pipe dream).
I would like to actually be able to use highways for their intended purpose, which is to get around the region quickly. The tolls don't need to be punitively high, they should be set at the higher of the level of wear and tear on the road imposed by the vehicle (which is pretty low compared to 407 tolls) and the level required to prevent congestion from reducing vehicle speeds significantly below posted speed limit. If these highways are unused at a toll rate set to just recover the cost of maintaining them (lower than current rates, I think), it is doubtful they should have ever been built.
 

Northern Light

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I have the complete opposite stance, of that I think that toll roads should not even exist in this province. Tolls for a big bridge or tunnel... somewhat understandable. Other than that, I don’t think it’s appropriate. People already pay taxes to pay for our roads, why should anyone have to pay a road toll?

People also pay taxes for transit; yet, when they get on a bus they also pay a fare.

Tolls are a perfectly reasonable idea that you ought to pay for what you use, unless, we all agree that thing is essential, and should be available without a financial barrier.

But since we charge for transit, and allow private, fee-based dentalcare, and childcare and tuition, I find it hard to understand how roads would be more important than all of these.

I say that, by the way, as a car-owning, driver.

****

Now if you advocate fare-free transit, that's at least even handed and we'll call 'mobility' an essential right.

But the challenge, is that there isn't enough highway or transit capacity as it is; and if both were free, the demand would be even higher.

Its only prudent to regulate demand through pricing.

Worth adding, gas taxes in Ontario haven't gone up in a very long time, since 1992 in fact.

There's been a whole lot of inflation since then.

Had that 14.7c per L gone up with inflation, the gas tax today would be: 24.5c per L

Likewise, the Federal gas tax has stayed at .10c per L it would now be 16.7c per L

Meanwhile.....the fares for the TTC have risen since 1992....

Then, a Monthly pass was $67......had it gone up with inflation, it would have been $111 today.......but instead, its $156

Had the gas tax risen at the same rate as TTC fares; the provincial tax would be 34.2c per L and the Federal tax 23.2c per L
 

anb

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The answer to this unfairness is not to remove the tolls, its to add tolls to all the other 400-series highways and the DVP/Gardiner/QEW as well.

***

Neither 412 nor 418 should have been built; but that's a different matter, and I'm afraid we're stuck w/them for a few decades.
I think 412 should've still been built regardless, as it is in the middle of Durham, and it is always the highway that gets preferred on directions between the 401 and 407. But I do agree with everyone that the 418 was a waste of money however, and it should've been a local parkway or arterial instead.
 

W. K. Lis

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People also pay taxes for transit; yet, when they get on a bus they also pay a fare.

Tolls are a perfectly reasonable idea that you ought to pay for what you use, unless, we all agree that thing is essential, and should be available without a financial barrier.

But since we charge for transit, and allow private, fee-based dentalcare, and childcare and tuition, I find it hard to understand how roads would be more important than all of these.

I say that, by the way, as a car-owning, driver.

****

Now if you advocate fare-free transit, that's at least even handed and we'll call 'mobility' an essential right.

But the challenge, is that there isn't enough highway or transit capacity as it is; and if both were free, the demand would be even higher.

Its only prudent to regulate demand through pricing.

Worth adding, gas taxes in Ontario haven't gone up in a very long time, since 1992 in fact.

There's been a whole lot of inflation since then.

Had that 14.7c per L gone up with inflation, the gas tax today would be: 24.5c per L

Likewise, the Federal gas tax has stayed at .10c per L it would now be 16.7c per L

Meanwhile.....the fares for the TTC have risen since 1992....

Then, a Monthly pass was $67......had it gone up with inflation, it would have been $111 today.......but instead, its $156

Had the gas tax risen at the same rate as TTC fares; the provincial tax would be 34.2c per L and the Federal tax 23.2c per L

Hybrid vehicles use less petroleum. Electric vehicles need petroleum only for lubrication. Very difficult to get the fuel (petroleum) taxes to pay for expressways as we move away from petroleum (take note Alberta, time for your own sales tax) for personal transportation.
 

Haljackey

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I agree that auto users don't pay their fair share for transportation infrastructure versus transit users. The gas tax should have kept up with inflation to help bridge this gap. People also complain about the cost of their license plate sticker renewal but I could see that going up a bit too. I just renewed for 2 years for $240, or $120 a year. This could be bumped to a nicer number like $150 or $200 a year. If you want to go crazy you could charge $1 a day- to $365 a year. Leap years would get a free day lol.

You could toll the bigger bridges in Ontario like the Garden City Skyway and the Burlington Skyway - just be prepared for a massive fight on your hands and congested alternative routes as well. They're both going to need some costly repairs/upgrades soon so these revenues will help pay for it a bit.

Regarding 407E's design, I would have preferred to see just 1 connector to the 401 (412 or another highway somewhere between the present 412 & 418). I would have also liked to see it connect directly with Highway 35/115 interchange near Peterborough for a more seamless transition to the Highway 7 freeway. Highway 7 could be slowly upgraded towards Ottawa, comprising of 4-laned, twinned, RIRO and full freeway segments.
-A further eastern extension of the 407 from it's current terminus makes little sense since there would be freeways paralleling it to the north and south.
 

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