Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[ShonTron]

The Newmarket Sub is the oldest active railway line in Ontario, built in 1853 to Aurora and Barrie and then on to Collingwood, built soon after it got to Barrie (Allandale). It was built to connect Toronto with Lake Simcoe and Lake Huron (Georgian Bay), its original name, after all, was the Ontario, Simcoe & Huron. Like many early railways, it was built to connect to navigable waterways together. Newmarket was at the time, one of the largest settlements in this part of Ontario, so of course this railway diverted to serve it. (Railways depended on financing from business interests along the way, so whoever paid up could influence the railway's route.) The Grand Trunk later bought the OS&H Ry's successor, the Northern Railway of Canada.

The Bala Sub was built much later by the Canadian Northern, which was a competitor to the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific. From the outset, the line was built to connect Toronto with Caperol, the junction of its transcontinental network. Apart from Richmond Hill, it didn't get access to the major towns along the way that the Grand Trunk empire did. So it went the other way around Lake Simcoe.

 

[wopchop]

Indeed, Newmarket was once a major market-town, with lots of produce from the Holland Marsh to the north, and surrounding farms. In fact, eventually, when the the Toronto & York Radial railway was expanded, it was diverted off Yonge Street and to Main Street of Newmarket to serve that market, and used to be a major destination for day-trippers from the city. But the real reason is geography. Main Street Newmarket is located on the East Holland river, so it became a major commercial settlement due to a number of mills and the tannery that located along that river. The railways came after to serve those local industries and market.

 

[MisterF]

Yes, Newmarket was once a market town. A new one.

The problem is that rural & exurban areas have been developing in an auto-oriented fashion for almost 100 years now. Rail works best serving relatively dense points along a line, but the origins and destinations within northern York region are very spread out so rail would be underutilized. People using the 404 are heading to Keswick, Georgina, Beaverton, the Kawarthas and all points in between. I would imagine that there are relatively few commuting downtown from those areas...

While dense and walkable locations are ideal, GO Transit has been using the suburban park & ride model for a long time. Extensions along new highway corridors would be no different. And with GO being converted into an RER system connecting to suburban mass transit lines, it's going to get less focused on Union Station in the future.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Sonysnob just posted this on SSP, thought it was interesting. It means that unless the eventual Highway 17 twinning stretches all the way from Ottawa it will not be eligible for a 400 series designation. Once the Sudbury bypass twinning is completed towards the end of this decade it would be eligible for a designation except for that one rule..

To be considered for a 400-series designation, a highway must:
• Be a divided highway consisting of two or more lanes in each direction separated by a median area or physical barrier in compliance with current design standards for freeways.
• Be controlled by access and egress provided only at interchanges through the use of ramps with acceleration and deceleration lanes and tapers in compliance with current design standards for freeways.
• Be posted with a speed limit of 100 km/h or the maximum speed limit as set by regulation.
o Short segments, approximately 5 km or less, may be posted at a lower speed (not less than 80 km/h) only when specific and unique geometric constraints exist; and;
o Such segments are rare and separated by at least 20 km to avoid the violation of driver expectancy through frequent speed variations.
• Be a continuous highway of not less than 25 km unless:
o Connecting two other 400-series highways (e.g. Hwy 409); or,
o Providing access to a provincial or international border crossing, in which case it must be connected to another 400-series highway. When the length of the connecting highway is 2 km or less, the connecting highway shall be considered as an access between an existing 400-series highway and the border crossing without being given 400-series designation.
• Prohibit use by bicycles and pedestrians.
• Prohibit parking, except in emergencies.
• Be free from at-grade rail crossings, lift bridges or any other features that would impede the free flow of traffic.
A new designation of a 400-series highway will not require a direct connection to another 400-series highway, except as mentioned above. However, when a freeway segment will be the logical and intended extension of an existing 400-series highway, a continuous connection to the existing 400-series highway must be completed prior to designation.
When two major freeway sections exist at each end of a planned corridor, separated by one or more non-conforming sections in what will eventually be a continuous freeway, only one end or the other may be designated as a 400-series highway. Extensions may be designated as completed.

 

[MisterF]

Sonysnob just posted this on SSP, thought it was interesting. It means that unless the eventual Highway 17 twinning stretches all the way from Ottawa it will not be eligible for a 400 series designation. Once the Sudbury bypass twinning is completed towards the end of this decade it would be eligible for a designation except for that one rule..

I wonder why the 115 was never given a 400-series designation. It meets all the criteria and it's the longest stretch of 400-standard highway not in the network. It would make some sense to renumber it as an extension of the 407 but it doesn't look like that's the plan.

 

[innsertnamehere]

doesn't meet up with another 400 series highway and is a logical extension of a future 400 series road. Though that last point is looking rather unlikely today, that was probably the thinking at the time.

 

[44 North]

I wonder why the 115 was never given a 400-series designation. It meets all the criteria and it's the longest stretch of 400-standard highway not in the network. It would make some sense to renumber it as an extension of the 407 but it doesn't look like that's the plan.

Good point. My guess is that in order for a road to be 400-series, it needs to be connected to other 400-series. Obviously that can't happen with the 35, but I think once the 115 is connect to the 407 it probably will be upgraded.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^115 won't connect with the 407, the 407 has its interchange with 35 roughly 4km south of 115. The guidelines also say that 400 series highways don't have to be connected to the main freeway network.

What IS interesting is that Highway 7 through Waterloo and Guelph will technically qualify for the designation once the Highway 7 upgrade is complete, as it will have around 40km of freeway designated as highway 7 once complete.

another interesting scenario is if 7 is ever upgraded to Perth outside of Ottawa. It would qualify for the 400 series designation except for the point that the 407 designation already exists, although not technically as MTO does not consider the 407 as part of its 400 series network. The extended 7 would technically qualify for a Highway 407 designation.

Edit: wait, the 407 East extension will be numbered 407 and will formally be part of the 400 series network. Never mind.

 

[diminutive]

We certainly need some level of road capacity so that people and goods can get around the GTA, but for the most part new highways simply enable people to move further away from work and benefit from lower housing costs on the periphery.

That's the entire point of transportation though, to allow people to travel farther distances than they otherwise would be able to! That's why the entire induced demand thing is weird to me. If new people are using it and extracting benefits from it, that's a valid consumer surplus. It might not always outweigh the costs of a particular project, but it's weird to judge road projects as failures because people are using them.

In your air traffic analysis, AC does actually aim to make a profit so there is no implicit subsidy. In the case of highways, there is effectively unlimited demand because the cost to drivers is zero.

Yea, certainly I think it's the case that the only practical solution to congestion is pricing. Even if demand is literally unlimited there are still consumer benefits to expanding supply, though. Congestion isn't the only issue.

 

[A Torontonian Now]

^115 won't connect with the 407, the 407 has its interchange with 35 roughly 4km south of 115. The guidelines also say that 400 series highways don't have to be connected to the main freeway network.

What IS interesting is that Highway 7 through Waterloo and Guelph will technically qualify for the designation once the Highway 7 upgrade is complete, as it will have around 40km of freeway designated as highway 7 once complete.

another interesting scenario is if 7 is ever upgraded to Perth outside of Ottawa. It would qualify for the 400 series designation except for the point that the 407 designation already exists, although not technically as MTO does not consider the 407 as part of its 400 series network. The extended 7 would technically qualify for a Highway 407 designation.

Edit: wait, the 407 East extension will be numbered 407 and will formally be part of the 400 series network. Never mind.

Highway 7 off the 417 is already 400-series standard in every way up to Carleton Place, yet still labelled "7". It's the fact that only one end of a possibly continuous 400-series highway can have the 400 designation until they are connected which must be stopping the 407 designation there. I never understood why that stretch wasn't 407 until you posted those rules, and personally I think that rule is a bit odd.

 

[Markster]

Sonysnob just posted this on SSP, thought it was interesting. It means that unless the eventual Highway 17 twinning stretches all the way from Ottawa it will not be eligible for a 400 series designation. Once the Sudbury bypass twinning is completed towards the end of this decade it would be eligible for a designation except for that one rule..

Yeah, I've always heard that the 417 designation will only ever be contiguous with the existing 417. Freeway bypasses of Sudbury, Sault Ste Marie, and Thunder Bay will remain Highway 17 for the long haul.

I could see the 115 being renamed to 407 eventually, though it's likely that they won't, to maintain clarity regarding what portion is tolled and what is not. We've already seen them choose tolling clarity over navigation clarity in the west, with the 403/407 twists and turns.

 

[Johnny Au]

There is also a high school (Clarke High School) and a senior public school (The Pines Senior Public School) on Highway 35/115 as well and the 400-series designation would not allow such an arrangement.

However, if the highway were upgraded, then a service road can be built to service the schools (as well as a few other businesses, including a Subway restaurant), just like the QEW.

 

[Kitsune]

Sonysnob just posted this on SSP, thought it was interesting. It means that unless the eventual Highway 17 twinning stretches all the way from Ottawa it will not be eligible for a 400 series designation. Once the Sudbury bypass twinning is completed towards the end of this decade it would be eligible for a designation except for that one rule..

Except, the province is no longer interested in twinning Highway 17 in Sudbury anymore, I'll be shocked if its done next decade.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Highway 7 off the 417 is already 400-series standard in every way up to Carleton Place, yet still labelled "7". It's the fact that only one end of a possibly continuous 400-series highway can have the 400 designation until they are connected which must be stopping the 407 designation there. I never understood why that stretch wasn't 407 until you posted those rules, and personally I think that rule is a bit odd.

its less than 25km as well, which disqualifies it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

There is also a high school (Clarke High School) and a senior public school (The Pines Senior Public School) on Highway 35/115 as well and the 400-series designation would not allow such an arrangement.

However, if the highway were upgraded, then a service road can be built to service the schools (as well as a few other businesses, including a Subway restaurant), just like the QEW.

The 35 part of the highway isn't 400 series standards at all, its a RIRO like highway 11 is south of Gravenhurst. Its the 115 part of the highway that is a full 400 series highway.