Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[WhistlerinToronto]

How about during rush our, anybody entering on one of the major highways is tolled per empty seat in the vehicle. It would force people to think twice about driving a large empty vehicle, and maybe force more to use public transit. All the proceeds could go towards burying the hwy, and towards subway expansion. $1.00 per seat except for those with valid out of province licenses.

 

[andreapalladio]

I think they take a picture of the number plate. I've never actually driven in London (who would?) so don't quote me on it.

 

[Mike in TO]

But I agree, the Big Dig should be our model for getting rid of the Gardiner.

I won't pretend to know all the details, so correct me if I'm wrong, but did the big dig not go 5 or 6 times over budget.

I'd love too see the gardiner come down, but lets not model ourselves after a plan that grossly underestimated timelines and costs.

While we can all ohhh and awe over pretty pictures and renderings, cost is a reality that must be faced - especially with the city in such a difficult financial position.

 

[cassiusa]

I had a feeling you might bring this idea up on here, whistler. I think $1.00/empty seat is a bit much. Maybe $0.25/empty seat would be low enough for a politician to propose this and not be castrated but enough to make people either think twice about driving or think twice about driving alone.

 

[GregWTravels]

Just looked up the London model on the internet. It's one of two different models used to implement congestion charges.

In London, you have to register and pay when you enter the main core. You can do this on the web, by SMS, or in person at specific locations. Photos are taken of the plates at entry points and throughout the core. If you haven't paid by the end of the day, a fine is assessed.

In Singapore, they have a transponder system that has to be in every car, similar to the transponders that the 407 uses. This calculates a toll and takes it out of your account as you pass through the toll gates.

Presumably, the 407 model could be used for a downtown T.O. congestion charge - transponders for those who drive alot, and pictures of the license plates and bills for occasional drivers.

 

[beaconer]

Boston already is something special. But I agree, the Big Dig should be our model for getting rid of the Gardiner. And if there is too much congestion on Lakeshore thereafter, then we should follow London's model and impose a congestion charge.

Fair enough, I meant to have said than, more special than it actually already is. It already is, but now even moreso, an extremely pedestrian friendly city, the most walkable of the wakka walkables.

I won't pretend to know all the details, so correct me if I'm wrong, but did the big dig not go 5 or 6 times over budget.

Mike in TO, Yeap!
Boston’s Big Dig project -- the most expensive road project in American history -- is officially bankrupt.

They had a lot more difficult engineering problems to overcome than Toronto would. They likened it to performing open heart surgery on a moving patient.

I see it not neccessarily as the plan but the implemenation that went horribly wrong.

FYI, the current state of the tunnel is that it has numerous leaks, and that they have several ongoing scandals and lawsuits with the construction companies and other contractors who among other things used inferior concrete and the problems are much worse in the winter when pipes burst. A lot of Bostoners feel uncomfortable being caught in a traffic jam in the tunnel.

www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/05/05/suspect_concrete_could_cause_future_headaches_for_big_dig/

 

[WhistlerinToronto]

Cassius, I'd be willing to drop it to $0.50 if I was in charge. $0.25 is to low to stop most people.

 

[3Dementia]

GB:

Short answer.

This is a "sketch". There is no business plan attached. It is an idea. Someone received their degree for thinking outside the dreaded "box".

You should encourage this thinking, particularly since you are not yet a planner, a mayor, a premier or anyone else who really doesn't give a shit.

The latest half-assed (also without a real budget or business plan) idea is just that... the latest. So you've hopped on that wagon, good for you. How opportunistic.

Gardiner schemes come and go. I've seen six of them that had a (fiction) business plan.

My point for one last time is.... it's worth a look. You are incorrect about the economics, you are incorrect about your vague notion that the engineering principles are not sound (cantilever cable-stayed construction IS often chosen because of the way it mitigates distruption), and you haven't explained your opposition to this in any but an elitist, I'm a know-it-all way.

I don't think this has a chance in hell in this city, however the simple fact that it addresses the issue of "minimal disruption" was enough for me to overlook the flaws and problems and try and see if there was any merit to the idea.

Meet me in the alley behind Sam's at 9 pm... knives, not chains.


P.S. forgot to mention you don't want to hear the long answer.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

3D:

I am not against "creativity", but ultimately it has to be used to translate things into reality - not to add baggage onto proposals such that they crash and burn without getting off the ground.

My point for one last time is.... it's worth a look. You are incorrect about the economics, you are incorrect about your vague notion that the engineering principles are not sound (cantilever cable-stayed construction IS often chosen because of the way it mitigates distruption), and you haven't explained your opposition to this in any but an elitist, I'm a know-it-all way.

But that's my point - just how many expressways do you see uses the cantilever cable-stayed method for the entire stretch, if it is so undisruptive and/or cheap? Everything is worth a look, but not everything is worth a second look.

As to the matter of being elitist - I don't think bringing up the planning (on/off ramps through existing/projected urban fabric/urban design matters), enginnering (highway ramp slope requirements wrt height of the viaduct), economic (cost of construction) and jurisdictional (air-rights along the railway ROW) reasons against the project could be considered as such.

Believe me, the topic of the Gardiner is one that has me thinking to no end for "creative solutions".

AoD

 

[3Dementia]

It's not an expressway it is a (negotiable length) stretch of "viaduct" that returns downtown to the lake. Very short but very impactful. Try Googling the distance and tell me this qualifies as an expressway. It's a short boulevard that camera radar will make a killing on (unlike University "Avenue" @ 90 kill-ometers an hour.

Traffic has to put up with a 1 minute delay between Fort York (which BTW is no longer obscure by the Gardiner, if that means anything to anyone) and Jarvis or Parliament... poor folks have to slowdown (lanes arrowed) to 70 km to be more neighbourly thru the core.

The good news is the extra capacity means the one minute delay will probably translate into a 20 minute time-savings during peak for those lovely 93% of vehicles that don't even want to stop downtown and buy a meal.

 

[spmarshall]

Where the heck are you getting your 93% figure from? The Gardiner is not, repeat is not, used as a bypass - it is mostly used by people to get downtown from the west. If the Scarborough Expressway was built, it might be another matter.

 

[AlexisTO]

The most creative and inexpensive solution is to do what they did to it east of the Don; remove it. Tear it down from the Ex to the DVP. Have ramps feeding LakeshoreBlvd, Fort York Blvd, Front St. and even Queens Quay, if possible. Turning some of these into oneway roads may even help a bit. Build some Airport styled, green P lots on some of that marginal land along the raillands. Service the parking lots with King, Bathurst, Queens Quay, Spadina streetcars. Now for the creative part; Set up a toll fee structure that is scaled to use. .50c for the road. $4.00 for the road and parking, $6.00 for road,parking and transit both ways $100 month everything pass.

 

[ahrvojic]

The Gardiner is not, repeat is not, used as a bypass - it is mostly used by people to get downtown from the west.

This is worth repeating once more. While I don't really feel strongly about the Gardiner either way, it seems that those most vocal about its destruction probably don't live in the west end of the city. Traffic permitting, one can get from MCC (which may as well be the other side of the moon for some of you) all the way downtown in under 20 min. No other route I can think of is comparable and public transit competes only during rush hour.

 

[jozl]

To everyone who wants to penalize all sinful drivers with a toll; take a look in the mirror and remind yourself that, all the food you eat, all the clothes you wear, the tv's, laptops, ipods, and all the stuff you buy which keeps our economy going and keeps you employed happens because of sinful poison belching carbon burning vehicles. I'm all for tearing down the Gardner and I live downtown and I ride a bike but...taxing people extra because they need to come downtown in their car to get to work and/or spend money shopping is ,in my opinion, unconscionable. Space is finite, you can only fit x number of cars in a given space. Let's work toward offering a feasible mass transit system that serves the whole region instead of taxing people who are just trying to make a living. Ask a Londoner how he/she feels about their tolls.

 

[adma]

I was just wondering if there is another North American city that has as nice of a city view entering the heart of a city as Toronto does?

Actually, there *is* a drama in approaching Buffalo via the Skyway.

Not that there are many visitors coming from Lackawanna way...