Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[Electrify]

Your suggesting that if someone lives near the 427/QEW interchange, that they shouldn't be subject to congestion charges, if they decide to travel on the busiest corridor in the city to a location near 407/404? There are so many faster ways to do that drive in rush hour! This is exactly the person who should be dinged with congestion charges, because he's the person who least needs to actually use that route!

I think he is getting at since there is no realistic transit alternative, a congestion charge would simply be a cash grab. I'd also argue that the Gardiner is probably one of the lesser congested highways in the city when compared to the DVP and 401 (the latter would see even heavier traffic if tolls were added).

On topic, the ONLY way I could see getting rid of the Gardiner would be by vastly improving regional and rapid transit in the Toronto area. Essentially turn at least the Lakeshore and Richmond Hill lines into "S-Bahn/RER" regional metros would be a start, but also improving connectivity as well. While theoretically it is faster to transfer on to a GO train at Bloor, Danforth, or Oriole from the subway, once you factor in the walk to the station and waiting for the train, the time savings are virtually non-existent - if at all. Redesigning these transfer points with moving sidewalks, if not full repositioning of the stations themselves, while running trains every 5-10 minutes throughout the day first, and then we can talk about taking down the Gardiner.

In the mean time, beautifying underneath it would be the best place to start. For example, the general design provides a grand opportunity to show off ceramic artworks and sculptures.

 

[pman]

I don't know why this is the case? If someone lives at Islington and Lakeshore, works in Markham, say Woodbine and Hwy 7, should they not be able to travel through the city on the Gardiner to the Don Valley/404?

Why should this person pay congestion charges if they neither live nor work downtown but have the need to travel through it?

Interchange is right. We need to accept that the Gardiner exists and move on to projects that will improve the transportation situation without dwelling on mistakes of the past. Billions of dollars in construction costs and further billions in costs from additional traffic during and after the construction is far too much cost for the perceived benifit. We have a tonne of land over at the Portlands that needs to be developed. There are still lots of opportunities for development on major arteries throughout the city.

The fact that the rail tracks border on the Gardiner make the land less developable even if the Gardiner were not there.


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In your example the commuter would drive north on 427 and east on 401 to reach his or her destination, which isn't exactly a hardship. Or maybe the person could move closer to work and impose fewer social costs on the rest of us with his/her automobile mega-commute. Either way, I don't see why so much valuable downtown land is rendered useless to accommodate regional commutes by people who neither live nor work downtown. And I don't see why road users are so averse to paying for the service. If the City is prevented from earning property tax revenue because the Gardiner ramps take up so much land, then it seems reasonable to recover that foregone income from the drivers who use it.

 

[jaycola]

In your example the commuter would drive north on 427 and east on 401 to reach his or her destination, which isn't exactly a hardship. Or maybe the person could move closer to work and impose fewer social costs on the rest of us with his/her automobile mega-commute.

The commuter would add 5 km (41.3 vs 46.1km) to his trip by not taking the Gardiner. It's not like the 401 between the 427 and the 404 is motoring along free of traffic and the extra distance traveled does have an environmental cost as well.
Taking transit is not an option. According to Google maps the 33 minute trip by car takes 2 hours and 5 minutes.

Regarding moving closer to work, maybe his spouse works close to home or further west so only one of them is subject to a cross town commute.

I was on the Gardiner today before noon and traffic on it was much lighter than the DVP and the 401 was a mess today because of "lane realignment".
The Gardiner is a necessary element of the GTA's transportation infrastructure. The actual amount of developable land removal of the Gardiner would make available for large scale redevelopment is really pretty small. A large portion of the land would be necessary for a wider Lakeshore Blvd and buildings are now built up so close to the highway, there is little gain in terms of usable land gained from it's removal.

I took a peek at construction of underpass park and it seems to be coming along well if slower than ideal.

 

[GTS]

I would like to see the elevated portion from the DVP to Dufferin buried and if it could be done with 4 lanes in each direction the better so that traffic keeps moving (proper air exchange system would be needed so that people in the buried section aren't subjected to any more exhaust then someone at surface level). A lot of the freed up land could be used for on/off ramps and the rest could be a sort of green belt with lots of trees. The reason that I would like trees is that a tree takes a lot more carbon out of the air then grass and most other vegetations do- it would be a bit of a natural filter that we would have.

I am sure that this would be expensive, much like Boston's, but hopefully we can avoid all the cost overuns that plagued that project by putting more planning into our own 'Big Dig'.

Getting rid of all the concrete from the elevated highway would probably be enough to make a new island for the Toronto Islands!

Their are a few bonus' for having 4 lanes and getting rid of the elevated highway. One is that all the condos and other propeties would see a substantial increse in their property values- thereby increasing revenues for the city because of increased municipal property taxes. Another way that revenue would be increased, this one at the federal, provincial and municipal levels is that the more efficient this highway is (by adding a lane) the more revenue the city would generate for all three levels of government.

These are just two reasons, there are more as well- I think if this generation, bites the bullet and makes this investment- Toronto will be the better for generations to come.

Also on a personal aethetic reason, I think a green belt in the centre of the city (with a few street running north/south through it) sells the city as an appealing place to do business in and visit.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Although I support burying the Gardiner...

I was wondering if the board members here would support opening up the Eastbound Gardiner off-ramp for Spadina to the Eastbound Lake Shore Blvd W in exchange for removal of the York/Bay gyro ramp (which is scheduled to be removed anyway). I think this would mitigate any traffic effects of removing the York/Bay ramp by giving access to Lake Shore Blvd at Spadina. I also think it could help relieve Spadina of the sometimes highway like congestion that happens northbound from Lake Shore to Front.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Just a reminder, it's the Lakeshore that's disruptive to the waterfront, not the Gardiner.

 

[PopsiclePetesCajunHoedown]

I have never seen a good argument as to why the Gardiner should be buried. It seems that all or most who oppose it base their opinion on it's appearance. Should we bury it, or worse, remove it without replacing it, simply to satisfy anal, aesthetic perceptions? The Gardiner is a vital piece of infrastructure that simply cannot be demolished unless it is tunneled, however, what's the point? What would be gained by doing so? It's not an impediment to development, as proven by the condos and office towers proposed around it's edges.

 

[andrrea]

I`ve never understood the whole Gardiner discussion. What exactly is the problem with it?? I don`t belive that it has anything to do with the waterfront.

 

[PopsiclePetesCajunHoedown]

I`ve never understood the whole Gardiner discussion. What exactly is the problem with it?? I don`t belive that it has anything to do with the waterfront.

I think many probably have an obsessive compulsive tendency when it comes to aesthetics. Some people really hate asphalt, therefore all parking lots and most driveways irritate them, whereas most people could care less about such things. I suppose they see the Gardiner as a dreary, imposing structure of grey and black and find it depressing (hence the suggestions to create a park atop it.) And the fact that this highway is so prevalent, by running through the heart of downtown, makes it all the more unwelcome.

 

[CapitalSeven]

"Just a reminder, it's the Lakeshore that's disruptive to the waterfront, not the Gardiner."

Thanks for the reminder of what is an opinion, not a fact, and one that many do not share.

 

[sixrings]

Taking down the gardiner and replacing it with nothing but a main avenue like the Miller plan is typically NOT a option for people. They want to see the gardiner barried. But the cost of that could be in the billions. How is this any different then the transit city logic. Alot of people thought a in median LRT was NOT a option and instead they NEEDED Subway even if it costs billions more. I would also like to point out that people in this city voted for less taxes (there are no surveys but I dont believe many people voted for FORD based on his transit plan, rather they voted for less taxes.) How do you build infrastructure that costs billions of dollars without raising taxes? I wanted a Ferrari but my family accountant (the wife) explained to me we could only own a Fiat. I wanted a detached housew but my family accountant told me in our area we could only own a semi detached. Maybe I should have just waited long enough and someone would have made a private partnership with me.

 

[Paleo]

Taking down the gardiner and replacing it with nothing but a main avenue like the Miller plan is typically NOT a option for people. They want to see the gardiner barried. But the cost of that could be in the billions. How is this any different then the transit city logic. Alot of people thought a in median LRT was NOT a option and instead they NEEDED Subway even if it costs billions more. I would also like to point out that people in this city voted for less taxes (there are no surveys but I dont believe many people voted for FORD based on his transit plan, rather they voted for less taxes.) How do you build infrastructure that costs billions of dollars without raising taxes? I wanted a Ferrari but my family accountant (the wife) explained to me we could only own a Fiat. I wanted a detached housew but my family accountant told me in our area we could only own a semi detached. Maybe I should have just waited long enough and someone would have made a private partnership with me.

The difference is that volumes people would actually use a buried Gardiner just as they do now while a multi billion dollar subway on Sheppard would collect dust...

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Gardiner Expressway between the Humber River and Highway 427 used to be the Queen Elizabeth Way. It was transferred from Ontario to the City of Toronto’s jurisdiction in 1997.

Now there is to be improvements for the Kipling Avenue and Islington Avenue ramps and interchanges with the Gardiner Expressway.

See this link for more information.

Now the cost of this improvement has to be paid for by property taxes within the City of Toronto. However, I can't seem to find how much are the estimates for this improvement. Improvement is italicized because it is an improvement for more non-416er's than 416ers.

Does anyone know how much is this project?

 

[Jonny5]

Now the cost of this improvement has to be paid for by property taxes within the City of Toronto. However, I can't seem to find how much are the estimates for this improvement. Improvement is italicized because it is an improvement for more non-416er's than 416ers.

Based on that diagram I see subtantial benefit to 416 residents and little for anyone from the 905. Your comment is rather assinine. Toronto does not end at the Humber.

Even if it doesn't benefit Toronto, the current design is very poor, dangerous even and has to be changed.

 

[rbt]

However, I can't seem to find how much are the estimates for this improvement. Improvement is italicized because it is an improvement for more non-416er's than 416ers.

Not to mention the large number of businesses who pay a substantial amount of property taxes to the city.

They might not vote but they certainly fund a number of projects.