Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[afransen]

Trucking is priced at "$/km". A toll would increase this. If tolls weren't a factor and the time savings offset the toll costs, then how come to this day we see most trucks opting to get bogged down on the 401 instead of paying the toll to fly across the 407?

This is true, but the 407 tolls are very high for trucks.

 

[Bojaxs]

o you think that would actually fix the 401? Those are laudable ideas, but the reality is that the 401 would remain in a state of daily failure.

What's the point of attempting to "toll" drivers off the 401 if you're not going to first setup viable transit alternatives? You're just going to clog up the side roads with car traffic.

 

[afransen]

What's the point of attempting to "toll" drivers off the 401 if you're not going to first setup viable transit alternatives? You're just going to clog up the side roads with car traffic.

There are some people on the 401 who do have transit alternatives.

People can carpool (I know people who carpool to share the cost of the 407).

People can travel at different times to take advantage of lower rates off peak.

People can make different decisions about where they live and work.

By your logic, congestion charges would not be effective because those people already had transit alternatives to get into core areas. Yet congestion charges reduce traffic despite no new transit infrastructure being offered.

I think you are simply incorrect in assuming that existing travel patterns are immutable unless we build billion dollar infrastructure that takes a decade to deliver. Organization before electronics before concrete.

 

[Bojaxs]

People can travel at different times to take advantage of lower rates off peak.

Not if you have a fixed work schedule.

People can make different decisions about where they live and work.

"Just pack up and move."

If only it were that easy. I would have moved out of my apartment long ago. But unfortunately that would mean my rent doubling. I'm currently stuck in my apartment due to the current rental/ real estate market, and so are a lot of other people.

"Get a new job"

In this job market? Good luck! My blue collar job in Brampton pays more than any white collar/ IT job I had in DT Toronto.

 

[afransen]

You only need some people to make different decisions. We don't need the 401 to be empty.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don't we already pay a toll for our highways in the form of the "gas tax"?

...

Electric vehicles would then use the highways for "free", since they use electricity to power them, not petroleum.

Hybrid vehicles would however pay some "gas tax", but not 100%.

Also, the "gas tax" does not pay for city streets, since it is paid by property taxes. Only provincial highways were supposed to be paid by "gas taxes", but with hybrid and electric vehicles that revenue source is diminishing. So the revenue will be general revenue (sales taxes, incomes taxes, etc.), which means everyone will paying for the highways, even if you don't drive any motor vehicle.

Tolls would be better since it will be paid by those who use them.

 

[afransen]

I think the idea of how 'roads are paid for' is a red herring. Road tolls are not about drawing a dotted line from those revenues to the construction and maintenance of roadways. Tolls are useful for managing the dramatic mismatch in the demand and supply of highways. We can't practically add more more highway capacity in the built up part of the GTA. So demand will continue to ever increasingly excess the capacity, leading to worse congestion. Tolls would be useful for reducing that congestion even if they took all the money raised from tolls, piled it up and lit it on fire. Fortunately, they can be added to general revenues to provide greater benefit than that.

 

[Allandale25]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-ford-highway-413-1.7331737

 

[toaster29]

There are some people on the 401 who do have transit alternatives.

People can carpool (I know people who carpool to share the cost of the 407).

People can travel at different times to take advantage of lower rates off peak.

People can make different decisions about where they live and work.

By your logic, congestion charges would not be effective because those people already had transit alternatives to get into core areas. Yet congestion charges reduce traffic despite no new transit infrastructure being offered.

I think you are simply incorrect in assuming that existing travel patterns are immutable unless we build billion dollar infrastructure that takes a decade to deliver. Organization before electronics before concrete.

People want what they want, and what has been achievable historically in this country. Whether we like it or not, the Canadian dream has never been to drive to work at 4AM to avoid traffic and tolls. What happens to the children of these people who have to take the 407 at 4am to avoid the tolls? More costs?

 

[afransen]

People want what they want, and what has been achievable historically in this country. Whether we like it or not, the Canadian dream has never been to drive to work at 4AM to avoid traffic and tolls. What happens to the children of these people who have to take the 407 at 4am to avoid the tolls? More costs?

You don't need everyone to make that decision to make a meaningful difference in congestion. If everyone drove at 4 am instead, the highway would be empty at 8 am!

Keep in mind, that person has other choices: live closer to work, work closer to home, take transit, carpool, etc.

My workplace has flex hours. Some people work 7-3 to avoid traffic. Other people work 9:30/10 - 6 + use the gym after work. You don't need people who start shiftwork at 9 am to drive at 4 am and sit in their car at their workplace parking lot for 4 hours before their shift starts to make a difference in congestion.

 

[Allandale25]

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

 

[turbanplanner]

You don't need everyone to make that decision to make a meaningful difference in congestion. If everyone drove at 4 am instead, the highway would be empty at 8 am!

Keep in mind, that person has other choices: live closer to work, work closer to home, take transit, carpool, etc.

My workplace has flex hours. Some people work 7-3 to avoid traffic. Other people work 9:30/10 - 6 + use the gym after work. You don't need people who start shiftwork at 9 am to drive at 4 am and sit in their car at their workplace parking lot for 4 hours before their shift starts to make a difference in congestion.

Honestly as good as flex time would be it's not viable if you're in a customer facing role and they need to reach, WFH should be something the government is either pushing or providing tax benefits for, but we saw how that went!

Not if you have a fixed work schedule.



"Just pack up and move."

If only it were that easy. I would have moved out of my apartment long ago. But unfortunately that would mean my rent doubling. I'm currently stuck in my apartment due to the current rental/ real estate market, and so are a lot of other people.

"Get a new job"

In this job market? Good luck! My blue collar job in Brampton pays more than any white collar/ IT job I had in DT Toronto.

This reminds me of browsing reddit pre-covid when people would say "just move" when it comes to traffic, some people have partners who'd then be in the same boat. Some people own and it costs at least $50,000 when you consider TWO land transfer tax, realtor fees etc.

Ok.

Sounds like there would be lots of motivated new customers for GO Express buses that would actually be able to achieve decent speeds.

I'm not too far from a GO bus line and they run really quick when they're going but on top of huge gaps in the schedule the time it takes to get to and from the station at both ends of the trip ends up being longer than just driving.

This is true, but the 407 tolls are very high for trucks.

The newly released rates are criminal! If I remember right we've gone from 4 "pricing zones" to 13, the cost for cargo vans is going to be ~70% higher than today. I wonder will this push drivers to switch to minivans?

 

[Allandale25]

Email from the project team:

​ ​

​ ​ 2024 Draft Focused Analysis Area (FAA) Update​ The Draft Focused Analysis Area (FAA) for Highway 413 has been updated to include targeted refinements, incorporating key design and environmental considerations. These adjustments were informed by updated, ongoing preliminary design work and environmental studies, allowing for a better understanding of land use impacts and alignment with local infrastructure. While the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) has undertaken design work on Highway 413, the Ministry of Energy and Electrification and Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO) have advanced planning work on the Northwest Greater Toronto Area (NGTA) Transmission Corridor and are making refinements to the Narrowed Area of Interest (NAI). The NAI is a corridor of land identified and protected by the ministry and IESO for future linear electricity transmission infrastructure to support growth in the region. The proposed lands for release that are no longer needed for the highway, are also not required for electricity transmission. The FAA and NAI overlap each other, except where each is protecting additional lands specific to its planned particular use. We invite public comments on the draft map, which incorporates FAA and NAI refinements, as part of a 30-day feedback period. Your input will be reviewed and integrated as appropriate before the finalized FAA is released in 2025. Public engagement is essential to our process, ensuring that community perspectives help shape the final outcome.​ The FAA includes thoughtful protection measures for environmentally sensitive areas while ensuring appropriate land protection for the highway, transitway and associated infrastructure enhancements.​ The updated FAA supports strategic planning for future corridor expansions and maintenance facilities by securing critical land for smooth tie-ins to the existing 400 Highway series network.​ MTO has a reduced interest in properties located outside the FAA. Applications can proceed through municipal development processes, and MTO will continue to review development applications in the study area, but it is anticipated that applications outside the FAA will not be directly impacted by Highway 413.​ Timeline and Next Steps​ Document Posting: The Draft FAA will be posted on December 9, 2024, for a public review period on the Environmental Registry of Ontario. After this period, feedback will be reviewed and considered where appropriate. A finalized FAA, incorporating relevant input, will be published in early 2025. The current 2020 version remains in effect until then, and updates on the finalization will be posted on our website.​ Stakeholder Engagement: Engagement sessions will continue throughout the review period and until the preliminary design phase is complete, as we gather input from municipalities, Indigenous Communities, and other key stakeholders. This ensures ongoing collaboration and transparency in the decision-making process. MTO will be hosting a Technical Briefing for Highway 413 impacted landowners on Thursday, December 12 at 1:00pm. Landowners must register in advance for the event by visiting https://www.highway413.ca/.​

 

[just east of the creek]

The stretch of the 401 where the 407 joins is already a traffic bottleneck. Add the ill conceived 413 to the mix and say goodbye to the time savings that Dougie keeps blathering on about.

I am sure the ministry conceptualizes traffic loads through the gta and on the 401 running towards kw long term and would plan for that. But I am also sure the douggies political operatives office does not conceptualize anything past the last poll.

 

[robmausser]

The stretch of the 401 where the 407 joins is already a traffic bottleneck. Add the ill conceived 413 to the mix and say goodbye to the time savings that Dougie keeps blathering on about.

I am sure the ministry conceptualizes traffic loads through the gta and on the 401 running towards kw long term and would plan for that. But I am also sure the douggies political operatives office does not conceptualize anything past the last poll.

Yeah im so confused why they would choose this place to connect the 413. Its just adding fuel to the fire.

Even if you are pro-413 you'd have to admit this is a bad idea.