afransen
Senior Member
This is true, but the 407 tolls are very high for trucks.
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Bojaxs
Active Member
What's the point of attempting to "toll" drivers off the 401 if you're not going to first setup viable transit alternatives? You're just going to clog up the side roads with car traffic.
afransen
Senior Member
There are some people on the 401 who do have transit alternatives.
People can carpool (I know people who carpool to share the cost of the 407).
People can travel at different times to take advantage of lower rates off peak.
People can make different decisions about where they live and work.
By your logic, congestion charges would not be effective because those people already had transit alternatives to get into core areas. Yet congestion charges reduce traffic despite no new transit infrastructure being offered.
I think you are simply incorrect in assuming that existing travel patterns are immutable unless we build billion dollar infrastructure that takes a decade to deliver. Organization before electronics before concrete.
Bojaxs
Active Member
Not if you have a fixed work schedule.
"Just pack up and move."
If only it were that easy. I would have moved out of my apartment long ago. But unfortunately that would mean my rent doubling. I'm currently stuck in my apartment due to the current rental/ real estate market, and so are a lot of other people.
"Get a new job"
In this job market? Good luck! My blue collar job in Brampton pays more than any white collar/ IT job I had in DT Toronto.
afransen
Senior Member
You only need some people to make different decisions. We don't need the 401 to be empty.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Electric vehicles would then use the highways for "free", since they use electricity to power them, not petroleum.
Hybrid vehicles would however pay some "gas tax", but not 100%.
Also, the "gas tax" does not pay for city streets, since it is paid by property taxes. Only provincial highways were supposed to be paid by "gas taxes", but with hybrid and electric vehicles that revenue source is diminishing. So the revenue will be general revenue (sales taxes, incomes taxes, etc.), which means everyone will paying for the highways, even if you don't drive any motor vehicle.
Tolls would be better since it will be paid by those who use them.
afransen
Senior Member
I think the idea of how 'roads are paid for' is a red herring. Road tolls are not about drawing a dotted line from those revenues to the construction and maintenance of roadways. Tolls are useful for managing the dramatic mismatch in the demand and supply of highways. We can't practically add more more highway capacity in the built up part of the GTA. So demand will continue to ever increasingly excess the capacity, leading to worse congestion. Tolls would be useful for reducing that congestion even if they took all the money raised from tolls, piled it up and lit it on fire. Fortunately, they can be added to general revenues to provide greater benefit than that.
Allandale25
Senior Member
toaster29
Active Member
People want what they want, and what has been achievable historically in this country. Whether we like it or not, the Canadian dream has never been to drive to work at 4AM to avoid traffic and tolls. What happens to the children of these people who have to take the 407 at 4am to avoid the tolls? More costs?
afransen
Senior Member
You don't need everyone to make that decision to make a meaningful difference in congestion. If everyone drove at 4 am instead, the highway would be empty at 8 am!
Keep in mind, that person has other choices: live closer to work, work closer to home, take transit, carpool, etc.
My workplace has flex hours. Some people work 7-3 to avoid traffic. Other people work 9:30/10 - 6 + use the gym after work. You don't need people who start shiftwork at 9 am to drive at 4 am and sit in their car at their workplace parking lot for 4 hours before their shift starts to make a difference in congestion.