Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[Student99]

Wait, so Toronto and London have roughly equivalent urban freeway networks but London has a far more developed public transit system, and THAT is the rationale for further highway construction???

Wouldn't the logical conclusion be to improve the public transit system?

sure it would. but that's not what Toronto chose back in the day. We missed the most critical opportunity to head down that proverbial fork in the road and we could never catch up to London in terms of subways now.

 

[Northern Light]

Oh why didn't I think of that. Good thing I have the $1,000,000+ laying around that's now required to own the average home in the GTA

Why such snark?

The reality is you choose where you work or go to school and where you live.

Yes, budget plays a role in the latter.

But you can own a condo; or you can rent; owning a house is not a requirement.

I'm not against this highway to inconvenience you; I do have an issue w/you demanding it and handing me the bill.

 

[Northern Light]

"ever again"? Really? To the end of time itself? This is good news, thank you.

So long as growth is capped at several million; yes.

Now if we grow by 20 million, then no.

But I see no need to grow by 20 miilion; and that is entirely our choice as a region/province/country.

 

[Student99]

Why such snark?

The reality is you choose where you work or go to school and where you live.

Yes, budget plays a role in the latter.

But you can own a condo; or you can rent; owning a house is not a requirement.

I'm not against this highway to inconvenience you; I do have an issue w/you demanding it and handing me the bill.

"choose where you work [...] and where you live"... it's not that easy for everyone. Perhaps for you, it is, but other people are simply not as blessed and their "choices" are shaped by the circumstances they face.

You are not "being handed the bill". We all pay taxes. Sometimes these end up funding things that benefit you, sometimes they end up funding things that benefit me, sometimes they end up funding things that benefit us both or groups other than either of us. Such is society. Toronto has had centuries of investment and there will be many more. So what if some money gets spent outside of where it benefits you directly, yeesh.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"ever again"? Really? To the end of time itself? This is good news, thank you.

I mean... its obvious hyperbole, but @Northern Light's point is true beyond question. There are dozens of cities with far higher population density than Toronto. You could pack all 7 Million GTHA residents into the borders of the City of Toronto, and Toronto wouldn't even have three-quarters the population density of Paris, France (which isn't even an extraordinarily dense city in its own right).

Now I'm not suggesting we relocate all GTHA residents into the City of Toronto, but this does very clearly illustrate that Toronto and the GTHA isn't remotely close to being "full".

 

[Northern Light]

"choose where you work [...] and where you live"... it's not that easy for everyone. Perhaps for you, it is, but other people are simply not as blessed and their "choices" are shaped by the circumstances they face.

You are not "being handed the bill". We all pay taxes. Sometimes these end up funding things that benefit you, sometimes they end up funding things that benefit me, sometimes they end up funding things that benefit us both or groups other than either of us. Such is society. Toronto has had centuries of investment and there will be many more. So what if some money gets spent outside of where it benefits you directly, yeesh.

If I demand for Toronto that the province spend the equivalent amount per resident as this highway would benefit; we're talking well over 80B just on the upfront capital investment.

You're not going to support that.....no sarcasm required.

That's before factoring in the attendant costs of sprawl.

The issue isn't simply the bill; its what its paying for.

Nor is the issue who it benefits, its how many, at what cost, not merely financially but environmentally.

I don't require you to agree; I do ask you stop demonizing those of us who have drawn that conclusion, based on the evidence.

 

[Student99]

I don't require you to agree; I do ask you stop demonizing those of us who have drawn that conclusion, based on the evidence.

No one's demonizing you. It seems more like the flip side; my lived experiences being working class and navigating GTA highways on a regular basis seem to be of no value. And thank you for decreeing that you do not require my agreement

Good night to all, and to all a good night.

 

[kamira51]

Transport in Toronto's inner suburbs will always be more efficient than in these far flung regions of the GTHA. The tens of billions of dollars we're wasting on expansions to our freeway network could be used to build an efficient suburban rail transport system to allow us to comfortably absorb this growth.

We keep doing the same things (with regards to sprawl) and expecting different results. It's the definition of insanity. Build more highways, induce more sprawl, then act surprised as the highways get clogged. Enough is enough. Quit with the highways, quit with the new sprawl, and do what we know we need to do to get out of this trap.

I agree, we should be focusing on how to better link the province by rail, but not under VIA as its prices are god awful.

But for the past 20 years, no government has thought of this, and its disappointing. I would love to take a GO train to Ottawa, or take it to London but sadly its not that easy and so, i drive because there's no road blocks.

If the province had a plan to connect Caledon with rapid transit(rail) i would totally support it over the highway.

 

[Northern Light]

I agree, we should be focusing on how to better link the province by rail, but not under VIA as its prices are god awful.

But for the past 20 years, no government has thought of this, and its disappointing. I would love to take a GO train to Ottawa, or take it to London but sadly its not that easy and so, i drive because there's no road blocks.

If the province had a plan to connect Caledon with rapid transit(rail) i would totally support it over the highway.

Great! (really)

Now, oppose the highway and demand the rail.

You won't get both.

Its either/or.

You're not going to get a subway to Bolton mind you.

But rush-hour GO Service, sure.

Light Rail into Brampton, definitely.

Better, more frequently local transit, no question.

But all of those cost money; money that will be consumed by the highway proposal.

 

[north-of-anything]

"Homes are too expensive, so we should allow developers to build even more single family homes on 150-foot lots that we can't afford". Great logic.

I'm interested in seeing what the 427 extension will do for traffic in Bolton, because honestly that's the most important issue for the everyday citizen - will being able to bypass Highway 50 via Coleraine/Major Mac have a substantial improvement for commute times?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

sure it would. but that's not what Toronto chose back in the day. We missed the most critical opportunity to head down that proverbial fork in the road and we could never catch up to London in terms of subways now.

Sigh, deep breath... Don't you see the mental loopholes you are going through to justify your support of this project???

Nothing is ever too late to do. We just need the political will.

 

[kamira51]

Editorial | GTA West highway is dying a slow death. Ford government should put it out of its misery

The GTA West highway would accelerate sprawl and pave over the Greenbelt. It should be stopped.

www.google.com

These types of articles upset me because most of these journalists dont have to drive everyday through this area. Most of these environmentalists dont experience what the common man does.

And this "30 second" saving is utter bs, it takes me almost 45 minutes to get from northern Brampton to Finch at Steele's

With the highway, it will save me gas and time, getting to toronto.

My biggest fear is if this doesn't get built or some rail plan is developed, Caledon will struggle with ever increasing congestion.

Somthing has to happen.

 

[Scotian]

Well let's take a look at London shall we? In the greater London regions there are, m1, m40, m4, m3, m23, m20, m11, and m25, so 8 highways (10 if you count the m2 and a1). In the Toronto region we have the, qew/gardiner, 403, 401, 407, 410, 427, 400, 404/dvp, 412, and 418, total 10. And I'm not including the stub highway 409 or the remote 115/35. So it appears to me that Toronto and London have a similarly developed highway system despite London having 3 times the population of Toronto.. .

The comparison with Rome is worse as there are only 5 autostrada in the region.

1) The London metro area has about 14 million people in 8300 sq km's, the Golden Horseshoe has about 8.2 million people in 10,000 sq km's. Regionally London is home to more people but not even twice as many as the Toronto area. Including just the city proper is useless as we're discussing regional transit.

2) You're not including the many limited access roads all over London, including some very prominent entrance/exit routes into and out of central London (Westway, Newham's Way etc.). Toronto has about 8 km's of Black Creek Drive and the end of Kingston Road in comparison.

3) My original post wasn't that one or the other is better served by this setup, only that the idea that "only North America developed in this way" was nonsense. Europe developed almost identically because their cities grew just as much in the 20th century as American cities did and they grew outwards for many of the same reasons.

 

[Northern Light]

Editorial | GTA West highway is dying a slow death. Ford government should put it out of its misery

The GTA West highway would accelerate sprawl and pave over the Greenbelt. It should be stopped.

www.google.com

These types of articles upset me because most of these journalists dont have to drive everyday through this area. Most of these environmentalists dont experience what the common man does.

And this "30 second" saving is utter bs, it takes me almost 45 minutes to get from northern Brampton to Finch at Steele's

With the highway, it will save me gas and time, getting to toronto.

My biggest fear is if this doesn't get built or some rail plan is developed, Caledon will struggle with ever increasing congestion.

Somthing has to happen.

You are making a lot of assumptions about people you've never met, and presumably haven't done any research on.

You also are making assertions that somehow only mysterious 'elites' like journalists are opposed to environmental destruction.

There seems to be plenty of opposition to this highway from people who live in Peel, Halton and York; and plenty of opposition from people who work 40-hours a week, and drive and have commutes.

 

[kamira51]

You are making a lot of assumptions about people you've never met, and presumably haven't done any research on.

You also are making assertions that somehow only mysterious 'elites' like journalists are opposed to environmental destruction.

There seems to be plenty of opposition to this highway from people who live in Peel, Halton and York; and plenty of opposition from people who work 40-hours a week, and drive and have commutes.

Im just really frustrated with the lack of a proper network in the province is all.