Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[innsertnamehere]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1446467283535212547

1. 407 east was a larger project with about 10km of extra freeway involved, and completed only 2 years ago. So, no it's not the largest project in a generation.
2. I love how vast cost increase concerns are very valid to the viability of a highway project but completely ignored for transit project discussions.
3. $4-5 billion seems reasonable. The opponent cites increased costs coming from the 427 extension, but admits about half of it is from operations. On a per-km basis the 427 extension is roughly similar to the 407 east extension, at about $50 million per km. The 407 East was a fairly complex urban highway and involved realigning the 401 in two locations, he's downplaying how complex the project was. At worst the 413 has only marginally more complex interchange conditions at the 407/401, but it has similarly general rural locations for construction for most of it's alignment, with low interchange densities (the 427 had interchanges every 2km, there are less on the 413 and 407 east), and actually one less full movement freeway interchange over the 407 East project, which is where most costs are (4 vs 5 on the 407).
4. As far as I know, no decisions have been made if the 413 will be a toll facility or not. While I wouldn't be surprised if Ford tries to build it without tolls, I continue to be supportive of operating it as a toll facility with reasonable tolls, likely slightly below the 407 east rates.

 

[DirectionNorth]

1. 407 east was a larger project with about 10km of extra freeway involved, and completed only 2 years ago. So, no it's not the largest project in a generation.

Probably is, at least when it comes to freeways. We haven't built large stretches of new freeway since the 407 and 416 were completed in the late 90s.

2. I love how vast cost increase concerns are very valid to the viability of a highway project but completely ignored for transit project discussions.

I love how we got many highways during the 90s, 00s, and 10s but only 2 transit projects, then highway supporters complain about transit price (when it's needed to reduce our emissions, to stop sprawl, and to help prevent congestion). 407 E = TYSSE cost, 407 privatization made probably $2-3 billion total (considering the consortium built some freeways) but lost more (opportunity cost) in tolls, cost to build 407 > cost to build Sheppard Subway. Ignoring freeway widening like the 401.

I am in favor of transit cost reductions - I think basically everyone on the forum has panned the EWLRT, YNSE, and SSE for their huge costs with suggestions to reduce them.

 

[kamira51]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1446467283535212547

Road congestion is a big issue in Caledon and its 80% trucks going south, east, and west. Somthing needs to be done to get trucks moving faster.

And no, I don't belive that subsidizing trucking companies to use the 407 will fix it since you still need to go from the top of Brampton, all the way down to the bottom, just to get to the highway.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ontario continues to build large freeway projects, but the 407 east was the first mega-highway in the GTA since then. It's not like it's the only GTA highway expansion in a generation though, the 404, 410, and most recently 427 have seen extensions since 2000.

Windsor Essex Parkway in Windsor was also a $1+ billion mega-highway connecting to a $5 billion international bridge crossing.

The province continues to slowly build the 400 extension, and extend the 417 slowly into northern ontario as well, which are large scale long term projects similar to what occurred in the 1960's through 1990's. A lot of the highway 11 work was completed in the early 2000's. By my count the province has built about 500km of new freeway since 2000, not including the at grade dual carriageway work that has happened near Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay, which would probably add about another 100km to the total.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Ontario continues to build large freeway projects, but the 407 east was the first mega-highway in the GTA since then. It's not like it's the only GTA highway expansion in a generation though, the 404, 410, and most recently 427 have seen extensions since 2000.

I should have said mega-projects.

Windsor Essex Parkway in Windsor was also a $1+ billion mega-highway connecting to a $5 billion international bridge crossing.

The province continues to slowly build the 400 extension, and extend the 417 slowly into northern ontario as well, which are large scale long term projects similar to what occurred in the 1960's through 1990's. A lot of the highway 11 work was completed in the early 2000's. By my count the province has built about 500km of new freeway since 2000, not including the at grade dual carriageway work that has happened near Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay, which would probably add about another 100km to the total.

So, basically, we're spending more on highway projects than transit projects? Sounds right. My point was that we have been underfunding transit expansion for decades, while continuing to build highways.

 

[innsertnamehere]

highway projects cost less than you think. Of those 500km, most of them are relatively cheap northern highway extensions. The 400 extension has been costing the province $8-10 million per km to construct. For the cost of building 1 kilometre of subway in Toronto, the province can build about 50 kilometres of rural freeway.

Windsor Essex Parkway was very expensive, over $100m a km, due to the large amount of bridges and high land costs (lots of expropriation). But even that is 1/5th that of a subway per km.

The province spends far more on transit than provincial highways, especially in the last decade, and *especially* once you include operating costs.

But yea, the province didn't spend much on transit in the 2000's. It didn't spend all that much on anything then.

The last decade has seen the vast majority of funds go to transit. MTO basically gets about a billion a year from what I recall to spend on expansion projects, with only the rare bump-ups for projects that catch politicians eyes (407 East), which it spreads across the whole province. And that number hasn't really changed much while the transit capital fund has as we all know completely skyrocketed.

 

[Rainforest]

The province spends far more on transit than provincial highways, especially in the last decade, and *especially* once you include operating costs.

But yea, the province didn't spend much on transit in the 2000's. It didn't spend all that much on anything then.

The last decade has seen the vast majority of funds go to transit. MTO basically gets about a billion a year from what I recall to spend on expansion projects, with only the rare bump-ups for projects that catch politicians eyes (407 East), which it spreads across the whole province. And that number hasn't really changed much while the transit capital fund has as we all know completely skyrocketed.

That's true, but the backlog of transit projects is a lot greater than the backlog of highway extensions. When a highway extension is delayed, it adds some to the travel time but most of cars can use other highways or local roads. When transit is inadequate, everything gets plugged, including the highways and local roads.

 

[DirectionNorth]

highway projects cost less than you think. Of those 500km, most of them are relatively cheap northern highway extensions. The 400 extension has been costing the province $8-10 million per km to construct. For the cost of building 1 kilometre of subway in Toronto, the province can build about 50 kilometres of rural freeway.

Windsor Essex Parkway was very expensive, over $100m a km, due to the large amount of bridges and high land costs (lots of expropriation). But even that is 1/5th that of a subway per km.

The province spends far more on transit than provincial highways, especially in the last decade, and *especially* once you include operating costs.

But yea, the province didn't spend much on transit in the 2000's. It didn't spend all that much on anything then.

The last decade has seen the vast majority of funds go to transit. MTO basically gets about a billion a year from what I recall to spend on expansion projects, with only the rare bump-ups for projects that catch politicians eyes (407 East), which it spreads across the whole province. And that number hasn't really changed much while the transit capital fund has as we all know completely skyrocketed.

Probably true (though the numbers I posted were basically equal in cost). However, transit carries more people than roads, and also alleviates congestion on roads (and other societal benefits). ELRT is projected to have a ridership of 200,000 daily, once opened, for about $6 B. Wasn't the number for the $3 B (underestimating here) GTA West something like 50,000?

That's not to say work couldn't and shouldn't be done on reducing transit infra costs (cough cough)

 

[EnviroTO]

Road congestion is a big issue in Caledon and its 80% trucks going south, east, and west. Somthing needs to be done to get trucks moving faster.

And no, I don't belive that subsidizing trucking companies to use the 407 will fix it since you still need to go from the top of Brampton, all the way down to the bottom, just to get to the highway.

I have to believe that the traffic in Caledon is north-south traffic. They may be cutting across to find a better place to go north-south, but there just isn't enough development to convince me that there is a big east-west trade of goods in Caledon... like the trucks are going between Terra Cotta Conservation Area and Bolton? Between some place northwest of Brampton to some place north of Vaughan? What are these goods producers and consumers that are both outside the urban area? A lot of goods flow into the city, a lot of goods flow out of the city, a lot of goods flow within the city, but far far less goods move around the rural areas. I have to believe the trucks are going east-west just to avoid congested north-south routes (like Highway 10, 400, and Airport Rd) and yes, they are using this to avoid 407 tolls and the nightmare of congestion on the 401. All the east-west roads in Caledon north of Mayfield Road are all two lanes, some times with a passing lane, which doesn't really yell "we need an east-west freeway".

However they can monitor traffic patterns and understand this completely and understand if the 407 is the answer, and seeing that the 407 is not that congested east-west and is in the middle of the urban area that says that if you build the 413 it will be seriously underutilized if the tolls were similar to the 407.

 

[Student99]

I have to believe that the traffic in Caledon is north-south traffic. They may be cutting across to find a better place to go north-south, but there just isn't enough development to convince me that there is a big east-west trade of goods in Caledon... like the trucks are going between Terra Cotta Conservation Area and Bolton? Between some place northwest of Brampton to some place north of Vaughan? What are these goods producers and consumers that are both outside the urban area? A lot of goods flow into the city, a lot of goods flow out of the city, a lot of goods flow within the city, but far far less goods move around the rural areas. I have to believe the trucks are going east-west just to avoid congested north-south routes (like Highway 10, 400, and Airport Rd) and yes, they are using this to avoid 407 tolls and the nightmare of congestion on the 401. All the east-west roads in Caledon north of Mayfield Road are all two lanes, some times with a passing lane, which doesn't really yell "we need an east-west freeway".

However they can monitor traffic patterns and understand this completely and understand if the 407 is the answer, and seeing that the 407 is not that congested east-west and is in the middle of the urban area that says that if you build the 413 it will be seriously underutilized if the tolls were similar to the 407.

Come drive it and see

 

[DirectionNorth]

Come drive it and see

But are they going from Vaughan to Brampton, or going 2 km on the arterial roads to get somewhere further south? I think that's the question EnviroTO is asking.

 

[kamira51]

I have to believe that the traffic in Caledon is north-south traffic. They may be cutting across to find a better place to go north-south, but there just isn't enough development to convince me that there is a big east-west trade of goods in Caledon... like the trucks are going between Terra Cotta Conservation Area and Bolton? Between some place northwest of Brampton to some place north of Vaughan? What are these goods producers and consumers that are both outside the urban area? A lot of goods flow into the city, a lot of goods flow out of the city, a lot of goods flow within the city, but far far less goods move around the rural areas. I have to believe the trucks are going east-west just to avoid congested north-south routes (like Highway 10, 400, and Airport Rd) and yes, they are using this to avoid 407 tolls and the nightmare of congestion on the 401. All the east-west roads in Caledon north of Mayfield Road are all two lanes, some times with a passing lane, which doesn't really yell "we need an east-west freeway".

However they can monitor traffic patterns and understand this completely and understand if the 407 is the answer, and seeing that the 407 is not that congested east-west and is in the middle of the urban area that says that if you build the 413 it will be seriously underutilized if the tolls were similar to the 407.

Based on my observations in the last decade, I noticed that Healey Rd and Old School Rd are heavily used by those going to and from Bolton most likely live locally.

And King St is used alot of by trucks traveling from the north end of Bolton to Highway 10 then turning either south, north or possibly going west to Orangeville.

I know around Caledon Village there's alot of gravel pits that deliver to the city.

 

[kamira51]

Based on my observations in the last decade, I noticed that Healey Rd and Old School Rd are heavily used by those going to and from Bolton most likely live locally.

And King St is used alot of by trucks traveling from the north end of Bolton to Highway 10 then turning either south, north or possibly going west to Orangeville.

I know around Caledon Village there's alot of gravel pits that deliver to the city.

And it's only going to get worse.

12245 Torbram Road

www.caledon.ca

 

[Student99]

And it's only going to get worse.

12245 Torbram Road

www.caledon.ca

oh good God. They need to stop approving until infrastructure to support something like this is in place. Caledon is just approving right, left, and centre, and then worrying about the roads after buildings get built.

 

[EnviroTO]

It makes you wonder what commitments under the table have been made when there are so many distribution centers going up in this area. They aren't building them on the 400, 404, and most aren't up against the 410, but right where the "theoretical" 413 would be. Auckland's Granger, Trillium Supply Chain, Pure Industrial, Prologis, DB Schenker, new Amazon Distribution centers, Canadian Tire distribution center... it doesn't make sense to put this much trucking focused development away from any freeways.