Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413

[Mariner35]

WFH is gradually being eliminated as bosses want employees back in the office 3, 4 or even 5 days a week.

The trend appears to be that hybrid will remain. The push back to office has been met with some conflict from the employee base and the younger generation is leaning more towards flexible job offerings. 5 days WFH likely will not be the norm but 5 days in the office will not return en masse either.

For example, my employer ( Pretty big company with Red Triangle) is at 2 days per week mandated but many teams are not abiding by it consistently or are rather flexible. It will likely never go back to 5 days per week and an increase in days in the office will likely result in many employees looking for alternative employment especially among the younger cohort. Something that management has no interest going through especially during a period of reduced sales.

 

[Bojaxs]

Sorry for bringing this up again. I know I've mentioned it before, but since we're on the topic of the 413 not solving congestion issues. I really think the Ontario government should sit down with CPKC and negotiate running a freight bypass that runs parallel with the 413 and connects with CPKC's intermodal facility off of highway 50 in Vaughan. Or connects with Mac tier, south of Bolton.

This would help to open up the Milton line for passenger rail and help alleviate congestion.

The deal would be some kind of "land swap" deal where Metrolinx gets possession of the Milton line including the Lambton yard, and the Ontario government in return gives CPKC the land needed to construct the bypass and a plot of land to construct a new marshalling yard due to giving up Lambton. Preferably somewhere off of highway 50, close to CPKC's intermodal facility.

 

[just east of the creek]

Sorry for bringing this up again. I know I've mentioned it before, but since we're on the topic of the 413 not solving congestion issues. I really think the Ontario government should sit down with CPKC and negotiate running a freight bypass that runs parallel with the 413 and connects with CPKC's intermodal facility off of highway 50 in Vaughan. Or connects with Mac tier, south of Bolton.

This would help to open up the Milton line for passenger rail and help alleviate congestion.

The deal would be some kind of "land swap" deal where Metrolinx gets possession of the Milton line including the Lambton yard, and the Ontario government in return gives CPKC the land needed to construct the bypass and a plot of land to construct a new marshalling yard due to giving up Lambton. Preferably somewhere off of highway 50, close to CPKC's intermodal facility.

View attachment 589284

And compensation for the construction costs and upgrades required?

 

[ARG1]

Sorry for bringing this up again. I know I've mentioned it before, but since we're on the topic of the 413 not solving congestion issues. I really think the Ontario government should sit down with CPKC and negotiate running a freight bypass that runs parallel with the 413 and connects with CPKC's intermodal facility off of highway 50 in Vaughan. Or connects with Mac tier, south of Bolton.

This would help to open up the Milton line for passenger rail and help alleviate congestion.

The deal would be some kind of "land swap" deal where Metrolinx gets possession of the Milton line including the Lambton yard, and the Ontario government in return gives CPKC the land needed to construct the bypass and a plot of land to construct a new marshalling yard due to giving up Lambton. Preferably somewhere off of highway 50, close to CPKC's intermodal facility.

And pray tell how will CP trains reach the Havelock and Belleville Subs? Are CP trains going to have to take this 413 sub all the way up to Bolton, then have to travel south all the way to the midtown corridor just to continue through Midtown? That sounds like a rotten and inefficient arrangement.

Don't forget that the Bolton Line is in the works as well, and if in the long run we want to turn that into a core line, it'll be a lot more difficult to do that when you inadvertently turn the MacTier sub into an even bigger chokepoint.

 

[Bojaxs]

And pray tell how will CP trains reach the Havelock and Belleville Subs? Are CP trains going to have to take this 413 sub all the way up to Bolton, then have to travel south all the way to the midtown corridor just to continue through Midtown? That sounds like a rotten and inefficient arrangement.

Don't forget that the Bolton Line is in the works as well, and if in the long run we want to turn that into a core line, it'll be a lot more difficult to do that when you inadvertently turn the MacTier sub into an even bigger chokepoint.

Why would CP trains have to go up towards Bolton to travel south? CPKC's Intermodal yard is south of Bolton and connects to the mactier south of Bolton. Trains leaving the Intermodal yard only go up towards Bolton if they're heading west. I don't see why trains heading to Montreal couldn't just travel south once leaving the Intermodal yard.

 

[Bojaxs]

Don't forget that the Bolton Line is in the works as well, and if in the long run we want to turn that into a core line, it'll be a lot more difficult to do that when you inadvertently turn the MacTier sub into an even bigger chokepoint.

If anything, this 413 proposal would help reduce freight train traffic on the MacTier. Trains travelling east on the Galt sub no longer need to head north up the MacTier towards the Intermodal yard. Trains leaving the Intermodal yard, heading west towards Chicago, no longer need to travel south on the MacTier to get to the Galt sub.

Potentially making the Bolton line more plausible? At least for commuter level service?

 

[turbanplanner]

Don't forget that the Bolton Line is in the works as well

Is it actually though? Park lawn is literally on the most used line and who knows how many decades until it opens? I don't see a brand new line opening before 2060!

*edit* looked though the Vaughan planning documents and noticed something that probably confirms my guess:

The Region of York Transportation Plan identifies the Bolton Rail Service as a project beyond the 2041 horizon

 

[ARG1]

Why would CP trains have to go up towards Bolton to travel south? CPKC's Intermodal yard is south of Bolton and connects to the mactier south of Bolton. Trains leaving the Intermodal yard only go up towards Bolton if they're heading west. I don't see why trains heading to Montreal couldn't just travel south once leaving the Intermodal yard.

Unless I misunderstood your suggestion, it very much sounded like (with your whole "land swap" vocabulary) you wanted to give CP the 413 sub in exchange to giving Metrolinx the Galt Sub. The problem is unlike the York Sub, the 413 corridor only goes as far east as Highway 400, as such this corridor only makes sense for trains running between the Galt and MacTier subs. If a train is headed to Montreal from Chicago, then they would have to run along the 413, then head south along MacTier to West Toronto Diamond, then head east along the midtown line.

The only way this doesn't happen is if you don't give the Galt Sub to Metrolinx, and CP continues to run trains there like always. In this case, what exactly have you accomplished? You have just spent Billions of Dollars building a new sub just to slightly decrease the amount of trains on the Milton Line.

 

[Sunnyside]

While on the one hand, you could alleviate a large number of trains off the Galt sub for GO service, it couldn’t be all of them.

On the other hand, the 407 Bypass is just a better option- it’s shorter and can follow existing rail alignments fairly well.

Perhaps there’s a way to do it- I don’t think CP is too particular about adding an hour or two to travel times, given the right incentives. But, the money you would spend could just get you a dedicated corridor of two tracks for the Milton line parallel to the Galt sub. I would rather we get better at mixed corridors than double down on avoiding CP/CN anyway.

 

[Bojaxs]

If a train is headed to Montreal from Chicago, then they would have to run along the 413, then head south along MacTier to West Toronto Diamond, then head east along the midtown line.

You're right, I never considered that. A 413 sub would not be beneficial for a train travel between Chicago and Montreal. In that case, the only way for a 413 bypass to make sense would be if CPKC were to construct their own "York sub" that entirely goes around DT Toronto. And I understand that's not likely going to happen any time soon.

On the other hand, the 407 Bypass is just a better option- it’s shorter and can follow existing rail alignments fairly well.

CN will never agree to the 407 bypass if they have to share it with CPKC.

 

[Steve X]

CPKC is here to do business and create efficiency. Like every other business. Not sure how people don't understand that they won't suffer for free to improve GTA resident's life. They don't care about transit in Mississauga otherwise they would have given better operating times already.

Like it has been mention above, Ford would probably have to pay and built for the ENTIRE GTA bypass to get CPKC to give up the current subs. Unlike the 413, this would need federal approval for sure as railways fall under their jurisdiction. Something Ford totally wants to AVOID at all cost.

This goes for those who think the 407 would let all the trucks on for a cheap fee. That would piss off so many car drivers paying $20 a trip to just not be stuck with trucks. They would create so many more potholes that would furtherly piss off paying drivers.

 

[toaster29]

That's as ignorant as saying the Danforth subway would mostly serve Greeks.

Greeks are white, and the Danforth is a much smaller geographic area than Brampton+Milton, and Greeks make only 3.7% of Toronto Danforth (not sure if there are demographics for just the Danforth, but either way, it's nowhere near the amount of South Asians in Brampton). There's a growing sentiment of anti-South Asian racism in Canada right now, which is why I made the point. Many are using the guise of 'environmentalism" (or any other excuse) to show their hate. They don't want any new Canadians to have access to the things they have (ie. new houses on the GreenBelt, the 413), but they also don't want to give up their homes or roads to the Indigenous people who lived here before them. So if you were here before or after them, essentially they don't want you to have what they have in terms of infrastructure or housing.

 

[turbanplanner]

You're right, I never considered that. A 413 sub would not be beneficial for a train travel between Chicago and Montreal. In that case, the only way for a 413 bypass to make sense would be if CPKC were to construct their own "York sub" that entirely goes around DT Toronto. And I understand that's not likely going to happen any time soon.


CN will never agree to the 407 bypass if they have to share it with CPKC.

Do they hate each other that much?

 

[Bojaxs]

Do they hate each other that much?

CN doesn't want CP trains running in front of their Brampton yard and Mac yard.

Plus CN moves trains between the Brampton Yard and Malport Yard on the Halton sub. CP trains running through here would impede on this.

 

[afransen]

Greeks are white, and the Danforth is a much smaller geographic area than Brampton+Milton, and Greeks make only 3.7% of Toronto Danforth (not sure if there are demographics for just the Danforth, but either way, it's nowhere near the amount of South Asians in Brampton). There's a growing sentiment of anti-South Asian racism in Canada right now, which is why I made the point. Many are using the guise of 'environmentalism" (or any other excuse) to show their hate. They don't want any new Canadians to have access to the things they have (ie. new houses on the GreenBelt, the 413), but they also don't want to give up their homes or roads to the Indigenous people who lived here before them. So if you were here before or after them, essentially they don't want you to have what they have in terms of infrastructure or housing.

You're the one casting opposition to highway expansion and greenbelt destruction as racist. That is a pretty nutty take.