Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[Euphoria]

It don't think Torontonians have caught up with the city's significance or potential significance. Toronto should eventually have all of these things: Expo, summer Olympics, World Cup, NFL team, second NHL team, additional subway lines, buried expressways, you get the picture. Drapeau understood this for Montreal. We need a Drapeau for Toronto.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

It don't think Torontonians have caught up with the city's significance or potential significance. Toronto should eventually have all of these things: Expo, summer Olympics, World Cup, NFL team, second NHL team, additional subway lines, buried expressways, you get the picture. Drapeau understood this for Montreal. We need a Drapeau for Toronto.

Hahahahaha... OK, now you're just having fun. I get it now -- this has just been the world's deepest & longest black satire operation. Bravo!

 

[Euphoria]

Try thinking big. Ye of little faith...

 

[LNahid2000]

Then keep the elevated Gardiner. Use underground toll highways to reduce congestion and pay for subways. This is a no lose proposition that makes tearing down the Gardiner possible should we so choose. Always better to have more choices than fewer.

You haven't answered my question. What if no one wants to pay the ridiculously high tolls to use this highway?

 

[wopchop]

What about long-distance trucks? Do they tend to avoid the 407 now?

Yes, there is very little trucking on the 407ETR. Especially in comparison to the 401.

I'm curious if having the 407 connected to the 401 on the east end via the new 412 will change this.

 

[ADRM]

Then keep the elevated Gardiner. Use underground toll highways to reduce congestion and pay for subways. This is a no lose proposition that makes tearing down the Gardiner possible should we so choose. Always better to have more choices than fewer.

This represents the worst imaginable outcome: Not only would it have us pay billions of dollars for a very complex project but we'd still be left with the urban blight known as the Gardiner!

What's more, it would represent (yet another) painful example of the fundamental lack of understanding of the realities of this city's struggle with congestion: There are too many people for the city's existing transportation infrastructure > the city continues to grow and likely will continue to do so > the city is not getting any bigger and, in fact, the overwhelming trend has been for people to want to move closer to the core > we need solutions that will move more people more efficiently (and cars of any sort are not that answer).

So, no thanks.

 

[kEiThZ]

Has anybody actually study a tolled Gardiner tunnel in any depth? I see what Boston's done for their downtown when I'm there and I'm blown away. Would love to see that here. But I doubt there's enough of a business case for it.

Alternatively, once we have GO RER up and running, maybe there's an argument for Miller's grand avenue from end to end.

 

[Euphoria]

Put as much transportation infrastructure underground as possible, including parking. Streetcars and delivery vehicles are the exception of course. Reserve the surface for pedestrians, cyclists, greenery, public art, cafes. Create complete streets. Do something unique and special. Bear in mind that Montreal would've lost 40 percent of its old town without trenching highway. Boston is well on its way to reclaiming the pre-auto city through burying its expressway. We could do it more cheaply away from the water and get a subway in the mix. Motorists would pay the tolls.

 

[LNahid2000]

Put as much transportation infrastructure underground as possible, including parking. Streetcars and delivery vehicles are the exception of course. Reserve the surface for pedestrians, cyclists, greenery, public art, cafes. Create complete streets. Do something unique and special. Bear in mind that Montreal would've lost 40 percent of its old town without trenching highway. Boston is well on its way to reclaiming the pre-auto city through burying its expressway. We could do it more cheaply away from the water and get a subway in the mix. Motorists would pay the tolls.

Proof? I don't think we should spend ~$10 billion just because you think motorists would pay for it.

 

[Euphoria]

The 407 has been a license to print money. Pension funds, private consortiums, sheiks would be salivating at the trough to finance this project and reap the profits. I say put it out to tender and see what comes back.

 

[LNahid2000]

The 407 has been a license to print money. Pension funds, private consortiums, sheiks would be salivating at the trough to finance this project and reap the profits. I say put it out to tender and see what comes back.

You're comparing an at grade suburban highway (which was sold for well below cost) to a buried downtown highway. I don't see how this comparison is even valid.

 

[Euphoria]

Right, it would be an expressway in one of the highest density, most congested parts of the country, in a city of high finance with a concentration of one per centers (highest income citizens). Gee, sounds like a white elephant...

 

[LNahid2000]

Right, it would be an expressway in one of the highest density, most congested parts of the country, in a city of high finance with a concentration of one per centers (highest income citizens). Gee, sounds like a white elephant...

I don't see any numbers in your response proving that motorists would pay the tolls...

 

[Euphoria]

Okay, while I realize the 407 may seem like it should be a cheaper highway to build, since the original segment completed in 1997 cost $1.6 billion to construct, the land acquisition was in the tens of billions and took place over three decades. We don't have that to contend with since an underground expressway evades these costs for the most part. True, there are tunneling costs, but keep in mind that the segment I'm proposing would run from 7-9 km in length. The 407 is 107 km. At peak period the 407 costs 37.5 cents/km in the am, 39 cents in the pm. The Province sold the 99 year lease of the 407 for just over $3 billion. I don't know what the annual profits are, but I'll assume they're large since the 407 is a growing highway in terms of usage and expansion.

 

[Euphoria]

So, let's suppose the cost for drivers of light vehicles is around 50 cents/km. That would make a one way trip approx. $3.50-4.50. That's not out of line with what many drivers are spending on one way commutes on the 407. Now, how much cost could drivers bear once the additional costs of subway tunneling are factored in? Is $5.00, $6.00 per one way trip over the top? I think not, since some travellers are spending far in excess of that for GO train or longer one way trips on the 407. I'd think $10.00 is a psychological barrier for a one-way trip on the expressway, yet some drivers are spending over $20.00 each way daily on the 407. I think the expressway would be a hit for HOV's such as coach buses and for heavy delivery vehicles for the time savings. On the 407 the per km cost for heavy vehicles is around 90 cents. These vehicles would make a large contribution to funding the amortized costs of building the tunnel, as well as operating costs. Oh, with regard to annual 407 profits, I'm not sure about current data, but I found this from a 2013 Toronto Star article:

Toll highway operator 407 International is reporting a 128 per cent increase in profit for the fourth quarter as it recorded higher average revenue per trip compared with the same period last year.

The company says net income was $39.3 million for the quarter compared with $17.2 million in the year earlier period. Revenues were $187.2 million, up from $172.8 million in the fourth quarter of 2011.

The company, which owns the private 407 Highway connecting several cities in the Greater Toronto Area, saw a slight decline in the total number of trips taken during this period to 29.2 million from 29.3 million in the fourth quarter of 2011.

However, average revenue per trip was $6.40 during the quarter, up from $5.89 year over year.

The company is owned by Cintras Infraestructuras S.A., a subsidiary of Ferrovial S.A, and partially owned by subsidiaries of the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board and Montreal-based engineering giant SNC-Lavalin