sixrings
Senior Member
It's not about big boy pants when we don't even have shovels in the ground for a DRL and our LRT plans are behind schedule. It's about priority and resources. Transportation should come first
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smably
Senior Member
Of all the things you could spend $5 billion on in Toronto, you'd choose a highway going through downtown? How about we be bold and put that money into the waterfront, the DRL, and the TCHC repair backlog.
(And by $5 billion, I really mean $8 to $10 billion, because seriously, does anyone believe that a bunch of tunnel contractors with a vested interest in this project are going to come to the city with anything but a lowball estimate?)
(And by $5 billion, I really mean $8 to $10 billion, because seriously, does anyone believe that a bunch of tunnel contractors with a vested interest in this project are going to come to the city with anything but a lowball estimate?)
Filip
Senior Member
And how about doing it all? Metro Toronto spent in today's dollars over $50 billion in the span of 10 years from inception to build out the required infrastructure (subway, highway, roads, sewers, water, hydro, etc) to lay the groundwork for a growing, burgeoning city.
Whatever they did then, we need to do again. You can't tell me one of the richest countries in the world can't afford to build a few streetcar lines and a subway tunnel.. Like come on. This is pure Canadian risk-adverseness and nothing else.
ksun
Senior Member
But you have explained yourself, Toronto is timid.
Shanghai is currently building 6 subway lines at the same time as we speak, and has completed 5 cross river tunnels in the past decade (8 being planned), while we keep talking about the DRL or burying the Gardiner as a pie in the sky, for the past 10 years. 100 options and recommendations, not actions.
salsa
Senior Member
This city had the opportunity to do something bold by taking down the east end of the Gardiner, and unlike the tunnel it was actually affordable. The mayor chose to dismiss staff advice and listen to the car lobby instead.
nfitz
Superstar
I don't see any point in comparing to Shaghai. Until recently it was a third world city. But in the last 15 years the city itself has had the population grow from 16 million to 24 million, and that doesn't include the metropolitan area which has another 10 million.
The Shanghai population is about the same as Canada, and has grown immensely recently. Of course they are doing more than we are! Add in that it's a military dictatorship, then it's just not comparable.
sixrings
Senior Member
If I had all the money to waste I would build a modern LRT Legacy system. Anywhere a Blue Line bus runs a ROW LRT would be made. Add in a DRL for good measure.
No idea why people want to waste billions in infrastructure and maintenance catering to the car.
By the way I just got back from Shanghai and that city has the worst traffic in the world yet people continue to drive. I do not consider that progress.
No idea why people want to waste billions in infrastructure and maintenance catering to the car.
By the way I just got back from Shanghai and that city has the worst traffic in the world yet people continue to drive. I do not consider that progress.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
He does have a point though - comparable cities elsewhere had dealt with the transit and urban design issue far more effectively than we did, dictatorships or otherwise. Let's not stand for mediocrity and pretend what we have is the best thing since sliced bread - because it simply isn't - and telling me your process is desirable doesn't change the fact that the outcome is entirely lacking, and ultimately outcome is what matters.
AoD
Tuscani01
Senior Member
The ridiculous thing about Toronto's approach is that we continue to get study after study saying gridlock is costing us anywhere from $6-$11 Billion a year, yet we continue to avoid spending anything remotely close to those numbers to try and eliminate the problem. $11 Billion can get us a lot of transit and road infrastructure.
Then again, this isn't a Toronto problem, its a Canada wide problem. Toronto relies solely on property taxes and user fees for revenue. The bulk of tax revenue goes right to the Federal and Provincial governments.
Filip
Senior Member
Fine, let's not compare Shanghai.
How about Boston, Seattle, Montreal, Paris, London, Belgrade...
A sunken highway is not a novel idea, and quite common in Europe... Anti-Car land.
Lenser
Senior Member
In terms of public transit and planning, Toronto's record of late (the past couple of decades, easy) in getting ahead of the curve is abysmal. No, we're not Shanghai. But we ought to be a good deal more future-forward in our thinking. Part of that should involve a healthy decoupling from the idea that the autonomous vehicle that is the car is supreme and paramount.
torontologist
Active Member
It's not a question of timidity or risk-averseness. It is a question of funding. People here (and in nearly all of North America) HATE paying taxes, and fall every time for politicians who promise them the moon for less. Until we accept that these things don't come for free, we cannot tunnel the Gardiner, extend Line 2 to Scarborough Town Centre, build the DRL, and fix the Sheppard stubway all at once. Priorities matter.
Tax rates were much higher until the mid-20th century (and federal governments much more cooperative), which would explain why Big Daddy Gardiner was able to build $50 billion worth of infrastructure. Since then, it's been a race to the bottom.
Tax rates were much higher until the mid-20th century (and federal governments much more cooperative), which would explain why Big Daddy Gardiner was able to build $50 billion worth of infrastructure. Since then, it's been a race to the bottom.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Well the problem isn't just that though - considering the political resistance to action at the municipal level.
AoD
Tuscani01
Senior Member
BINGO! Cuts, cuts, and more cuts have brought us to where we are now, and yet cuts, cuts, and more cuts are all that people continue to call for.
Until the electorate realizes that infrastructure doesn't grow on trees, we are going to be stuck here.
(Though the Wynne government winning a majority on a pledge of running a deficit, and the Federal Liberals running on the same type of platform does seem to be bucking the trend)
Tuscani01
Senior Member
It's easily the biggest problem. Look how many major transit plans we have had in this city alone over the last few decades, and how none of these were able to move forward due to funding issues. We shouldn't be planning transit and then going to upper levels of government hunting for funding. We should be told how much funding we are getting, and plan our transit based on that.
I mean, look at the Mississauga Transitway as an example of how bad our system is. Hazel championed that project and shopped it to upper levels of government for decades before they finally committed to funding it. The municipal level wants transit. The process to get their plans financed is what holds us back every time.