Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[turbanplanner]

I guess this dream is dead, at least until the 2040s, I'd guess.

It Would Be a Mistake for Toronto Not to Tear Down Its Urban Expressway

Removing an elevated city highway doesn’t always make traffic worse—some cars just disappear.

www.bloomberg.com

Has anyone here driven on the Gardiner at rush hour? Nobody is driving for fun, I don't trust "expert opinions" when they're disconnected from reality.
Until you have FUNCTIONAL transit across city boundaries that doesn't just randomly close or downgrade for years (streetcar lines closing for almost a decade, go trains that don't run express or run 4 trains a day) and people feel safe you're not getting those people out of their cars.

I used to drive downtown at rush hour, induced demand says when you take away lanes traffic should be about the same as people will stop driving but that's NOT THE CASE HERE.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Has anyone here driven on the Gardiner at rush hour?

I used to drive downtown at rush hour, induced demand says when you take away lanes traffic should be about the same as people will stop driving but that's NOT THE CASE HERE.

In my neighbourhood I often walk the dog along Gerrard from River to Parliament around afternoon rush hour and I see the hundreds of SOVs crawling to get out of the city. If you doubled my salary I'd still not do that drive. Just wait until the Regent Park redevelopment is completed and Gerrard had separated bike lanes on either curb and only a single lane for streetcars and autos. It's going to be gridlock.

As for the Gardiner-DVP link, I use that as my default route to avoid the Parliament and Lakeshore mess. So far it's usually the best option by far, even during the reverse rush hour.

 

[DanielMar_Toronto]

You are conflating different things. A highway and a freeway are not necessarily one and the same.

A highway is a main road between cities, i.e. Lake Shore or Kingston Roads. A freeway/motorway/expressway is a grade separated, controlled access road with higher speed limits. Highway 27 is not the latter, it is just an ugly monster stroad.

I’d actually say Highway 27 is one of the few arterials in the City that’s not a freeway but actually operates as a “Road” (If we’re going by the StrongTowns criteria). It has at grade intersections, but very few side street intersections and property intersections (although even then, those are very well controlled in the sense you merge onto Highway 27 from them). It’s main goal is literally just to move traffic it seems, unlike most arterials in the City where moving traffic is a goal, but merging in and out of plazas and traffic lights are far too common.

 

[gweed123]

I’d actually say Highway 27 is one of the few arterials in the City that’s not a freeway but actually operates as a “Road” (If we’re going by the StrongTowns criteria). It has at grade intersections, but very few side street intersections and property intersections (although even then, those are very well controlled in the sense you merge onto Highway 27 from them). It’s main goal is literally just to move traffic it seems, unlike most arterials in the City where moving traffic is a goal, but merging in and out of plazas and traffic lights are far too common.

Agreed. Highway 27 reminds me a lot of US highways throughout the states. That whole 'flipping back and forth between a freeway and a giant avenue' seems very American.

 

[ssiguy2]

The elevated Gardiner is going ahead but, contrary to what many highway haters believe, that could be a great thing and it wouldn't require much money but simply imagination.

Underneath the Gardiner, land is truly a diamond in the rough and once polished it could become a the new "go-to" place in the city. Imagine under the Gardiner walking/biking in a beautifully designed and lighted promenade with public art, musicians, cafes, and shops. Being able to ride your bike or walk under the Gardiner in the morning grabbing a coffee or muffin on your way to work and a drink after work. When the other cafes are closed due to rain or snow the Gardiner is the option. No more worrying about cycling or walking in the rain or snow. A wonderful urban oasis in the death of heat that is Toronto summers. If Toronto plays it's cards right, more people could be walking/biking under the Gardiner than people driving their cars on it. The Gardiner is Toronto's next people's place in the waiting and a tax revenue for the city coffers to boot.

When you've got lemons you make lemonade and you can even sell it under the Gardiner.

 

[adma]

Agreed. Highway 27 reminds me a lot of US highways throughout the states. That whole 'flipping back and forth between a freeway and a giant avenue' seems very American.

Or Albertan, in the sense of Calgary/Edmonton.

Keep in mind, too, that aside from its going through an industrial area and thus serving a lot of freight traffic, a reason why Hwy 27 is the way it is is because it was the originally projected path for what we now know as the 427 (i.e. the controlled-access part of Hwy 27 was meant to advance further north, not diverge along the Airport Expressway/Indian Line alignment)

 

[Haljackey]

Underneath the Gardiner, land is truly a diamond in the rough and once polished it could become a the new "go-to" place in the city. Imagine under the Gardiner walking/biking in a beautifully designed and lighted promenade with public art, musicians, cafes, and shops. Being able to ride your bike or walk under the Gardiner in the morning grabbing a coffee or muffin on your way to work and a drink after work. When the other cafes are closed due to rain or snow the Gardiner is the option. No more worrying about cycling or walking in the rain or snow. A wonderful urban oasis in the death of heat that is Toronto summers. If Toronto plays it's cards right, more people could be walking/biking under the Gardiner than people driving their cars on it. The Gardiner is Toronto's next people's place in the waiting and a tax revenue for the city coffers to boot.

All one needs to do is go visit Boston to discover what the land the Gardiner occupies could possibly be.

Check out the last episode of the big dig podcast with slides... or watch the full thing if interested.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMQKK3_a14M3A-SQdVVWhOfOw8xRUuueJ

 

[jje1000]

The elevated Gardiner is going ahead but, contrary to what many highway haters believe, that could be a great thing and it wouldn't require much money but simply imagination.

Underneath the Gardiner, land is truly a diamond in the rough and once polished it could become a the new "go-to" place in the city. Imagine under the Gardiner walking/biking in a beautifully designed and lighted promenade with public art, musicians, cafes, and shops. Being able to ride your bike or walk under the Gardiner in the morning grabbing a coffee or muffin on your way to work and a drink after work. When the other cafes are closed due to rain or snow the Gardiner is the option. No more worrying about cycling or walking in the rain or snow. A wonderful urban oasis in the death of heat that is Toronto summers. If Toronto plays it's cards right, more people could be walking/biking under the Gardiner than people driving their cars on it. The Gardiner is Toronto's next people's place in the waiting and a tax revenue for the city coffers to boot.

When you've got lemons you make lemonade and you can even sell it under the Gardiner.

Yes, the true problem with the Gardiner is the Lakeshore and its web of ramps. Put the Gardiner under ground, and you're still dealing with a 6-lane boulevard + the ramps, which are now simply inverted.

Where the Lakeshore isn't there, you can get the Bentway, or in the case of Eastern Ave, the Underpass Skatepark.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes, the true problem with the Gardiner is the Lakeshore and its web of ramps. Put the Gardiner under ground, and you're still dealing with a 6-lane boulevard + the ramps, which are now simply inverted.

Where the Lakeshore isn't there, you can get the Bentway, or in the case of Eastern Ave, the Underpass Skatepark.

This discussion made a question pop into my mind. In terms of the Gardiner, I wonder what the province is taking over. Responsibility for? Complete title? Does it include the space under the structure? Sort of like the Burlington Bay and Garden City Skyways; who owns what they sit on?

 

[sixrings]

All one needs to do is go visit Boston to discover what the land the Gardiner occupies could possibly be.

Check out the last episode of the big dig podcast with slides... or watch the full thing if interested.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMQKK3_a14M3A-SQdVVWhOfOw8xRUuueJ

I agree. Let’s spend billions on roads and less on transit. This government has everything backwards.

 

[Northern Light]

This discussion made a question pop into my mind. In terms of the Gardiner, I wonder what the province is taking over. Responsibility for? Complete title? Does it include the space under the structure? Sort of like the Burlington Bay and Garden City Skyways; who owns what they sit on?

Good question, and what implication, if any, does that have for 'The Bentway' ?

****

On a related note (unknown implications of the upload)....

I'm hearing rumblings from concerned City staff.....

- Current ramps to Gardiner/DVP non-compliant with MTO standards, how will MTO resolve this?

- MTO has 'zone of control' of 400M from the centreline of any highway; how will this impact the City in terms of ability to install sidewalks, cycle tracks, traffic lights or anything else near within said 'zone'?

- Some here (UT) have been advocating for removing certain ramps; this will presumably no longer be within the City's purview.

***

Also raised, MTO does not allow billboards such as those next to the Gardiner; whose on the hook if they have to come down?

***

Further, MTO does not allow residential anywhere near as close to its highways as has already been built next to the Gardiner railings., How will that be resolved?

***

Lots of different questions from different people about different impacts.

One would like to think at least some of this has been thought through...........but I wonder if enough of it has.....

 

[innsertnamehere]

Good question, and what implication, if any, does that have for 'The Bentway' ?

****

On a related note (unknown implications of the upload)....

I'm hearing rumblings from concerned City staff.....

- Current ramps to Gardiner/DVP non-compliant with MTO standards, how will MTO resolve this? I suspect MTO will accept non-compliance and try to correct where possible. MTO will accept substandard designs on their own freeway networks where impacts would be too great to address, so I don't see why the Gardiner / DVP would be different. I do imagine MTO will look to make a number of changes to the highways though, particularly the DVP.

- MTO has 'zone of control' of 400M from the centreline of any highway; how will the impact the City in terms of ability to install sidewalks, cycle tracks, traffic lights or anything else near within said 'zone'? MTO will likely enforce this.

- Some here (UT) have advocating for removing certain ramps; this will presumably no longer by within the City's purview. Agreed. MTO would likely continue with the reconfiguration work downtown, I would hope, however.

***

Also raised, MTO does not allow billboards such as those next to the Gardiner; whose on the hook if they have to come down? I imagine that the existing billboards will be grandfathered in with new billboards no longer permitted.

***

Further, MTO does not allow residential anywhere near as close to its highways as has already been built next to the Gardiner railings., How will that be resolved? MTO requires a 14 metre buffer from their highway facilities - I imagine they will enforce this on new development but accept existing conditions, like they do on their existing highway assets. There aren't a ton of soft-sites left along the Gardiner or DVP where this would have a major impact though. the only one which really comes to mind is Quayside.

***

Lots of different questions from different people about different impacts.

One would like to think at least some of this has been thought through...........but I wonder if enough of it has..... I suspect not.

I've given my guesses in bold responses above..

 

[adys123]

I am not against Ford taking over the DVP & Gardiner but it is a matter of equity and making, as an example, Windsorites feel their needs and concerns are just as important and valid as Torontonians. Ontarians know that big cities face unique challenges and expenses and the amount of funding they require to maintain it's economy and quality of life is much higher than most cities. That said, Windsor is not Wingham. It is a major Ontario city and a very important one due to it's large manufacturing base and being the biggest port of entry in the country.

Windsor is also facing a homeless crisis and financial difficulties and it too could use the break that Toronto just got. It's a matter of fairness and without people feeling they are being treated in a fair way, they become more disenfranchised and resentful and that is not good for any city or province.

The uber wealthy corporate kings may create a lot of jobs but does that make you feel any better when they are given huge tax cuts and write-offs to the point they pay little more tax than anyone else? Now that Trudeau has given Atlantic Canadians a break on the carbon tax justifying it by saying the AC is a poorer area and they deserve to get special help does that make Torontonians any happier when they have to pay the carbon tax on their natural gas bill? I think not and I think both analogies are solid.

This is a rather strange argument on equity. Toronto contributed to 50% of Ontario's GDP and 20% of Canada's GDP, whatever investments we see don't nearly account for equitable treatment. There's a reason why we have a housing shortage and an affordability crisis (besides structural factors), that's because people come to Toronto for opportunities that exist or are perceived to exist.

The carbon tax exemption is on heating fuels, it is not location dependent. Torontonians are lucky to be able to use a more efficient and cheaper fuel for heating.

Ultimately, we all do better when we work together and recognize each place's contribution to the society.

 

[dullturtle06]

Good question, and what implication, if any, does that have for 'The Bentway' ?

****

On a related note (unknown implications of the upload)....

I'm hearing rumblings from concerned City staff.....

- Current ramps to Gardiner/DVP non-compliant with MTO standards, how will MTO resolve this?

- MTO has 'zone of control' of 400M from the centreline of any highway; how will the impact the City in terms of ability to install sidewalks, cycle tracks, traffic lights or anything else near within said 'zone'?

- Some here (UT) have advocating for removing certain ramps; this will presumably no longer by within the City's purview.

***

Also raised, MTO does not allow billboards such as those next to the Gardiner; whose on the hook if they have to come down?

***

Further, MTO does not allow residential anywhere near as close to its highways as has already been built next to the Gardiner railings., How will that be resolved?

***

Lots of different questions from different people about different impacts.

One would like to think at least some of this has been thought through...........but I wonder if enough of it has.....

MTO can always update a standards to have rural highway and urban highway standards. Land is expensive and having 14 meters on either side sit vacant is fine in a rural context. In a city it's a waste of resources and potential tax revenue. Build it an people will buy as has been seen with all the housing that has been built next to the Gardiner.

 

[Northern Light]

MTO can always update a standards to have rural highway and urban highway standards. Land is expensive and having 14 meters on either side sit vacant is fine in a rural context. In a city it's a waste of resources and potential tax revenue. Build it an people will buy as has been seen with all the housing that has been built next to the Gardiner.

I agree they could do this, and probably should do this; but I don't know if they will do this; and whether the City has ironed any of that out w/them.

Its something that should be brought to the City Manager's and the Mayor's attention that some of these issues require clear spelling out.