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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

700K Line 1 daily ridership vs what, 140K trips on the Gardiner. Your call.

AoD

If you're talking about all of Line 1, you might as well include all of the Gardiner. 427 to Kipling itself carries about ~250,000 vehicles daily. Add those going to Etobicoke/coming from Etobicoke to downtown and beyond you're probably at 500K, easy.
 
^couple of questions about those numbers (not being argumentative just have always wondered about them)...using the Gardiner west as an example......

  1. If a driver comes along the Gardiner and get's off at, say, Jameson to then use another road to cross that "downtown border" at Bathurst are they counted in the 4% or the 21%?
  2. Are the Gardiner and Lake Shore (and to a lesser extent Queensway) numbers separate? A lot of the drivers driving on the Lake Shore and Queesnway in the morning rush are doing so because the Gardiner is full and congested....so they really are the same "population" and while they may cross Bathurst on a route other than the Gardiner ....aren't they really just part of the same population and if they were combined would account for a bigger number.
I am far more familiar with the west end commute patterns but, I presume, there must be similar alternatives in the east....and every time I see those numbers I wonder if they aren't just a bit glib and produced with a specific intent/agenda in mind. It really is difficult in rush hour to look at the cars on the Gardiner combined with the Lake Shore and not wonder what would the situation be like if the Gardiner did not exist.

Not saying there is no other, viable, alternative, plan, but when someone says only 4% (like that graphic does) it seems to be used to say that only 4% are affected...and I do not think that is the case at all.
 
^couple of questions about those numbers (not being argumentative just have always wondered about them)...using the Gardiner west as an example......

  1. If a driver comes along the Gardiner and get's off at, say, Jameson to then use another road to cross that "downtown border" at Bathurst are they counted in the 4% or the 21%?
  2. Are the Gardiner and Lake Shore (and to a lesser extent Queensway) numbers separate? A lot of the drivers driving on the Lake Shore and Queesnway in the morning rush are doing so because the Gardiner is full and congested....so they really are the same "population" and while they may cross Bathurst on a route other than the Gardiner ....aren't they really just part of the same population and if they were combined would account for a bigger number.
I am far more familiar with the west end commute patterns but, I presume, there must be similar alternatives in the east....and every time I see those numbers I wonder if they aren't just a bit glib and produced with a specific intent/agenda in mind. It really is difficult in rush hour to look at the cars on the Gardiner combined with the Lake Shore and not wonder what would the situation be like if the Gardiner did not exist.

Not saying there is no other, viable, alternative, plan, but when someone says only 4% (like that graphic does) it seems to be used to say that only 4% are affected...and I do not think that is the case at all.

Look at what happens when the Gardiner or the DVP or Lake Shore are closed for construction or "Ride for Heart", "Toronto Triathlon Festival", "Scotiabank Waterfront Marathon", etc. The resulting traffic congestion is extremely severe, and this is on a weekend. Imagine if they did this in rush hour.

I think that there would be delays of at least 10-20 minutes in rush hour if you tore down the east Gardiner, and it would increase dramatically if there is an accident on Lake Shore.
 
I am far more familiar with the west end commute patterns but, I presume, there must be similar alternatives in the east....and every time I see those numbers I wonder if they aren't just a bit glib and produced with a specific intent/agenda in mind. It really is difficult in rush hour to look at the cars on the Gardiner combined with the Lake Shore and not wonder what would the situation be like if the Gardiner did not exist.

Not saying there is no other, viable, alternative, plan, but when someone says only 4% (like that graphic does) it seems to be used to say that only 4% are affected...and I do not think that is the case at all.

The graphic is a bit misleading, as are people that post it to disingenuously claim the Gardiner carries such a small percentage of commuters. The graphic is showing commuters TO downtown, not THROUGH downtown. Yes only 7% take the Gardiner into downtown in the AM peak, and I'm actually glad for that. And I'm also glad that there's a grade-separated highway to carry tens of thousands of drivers across downtown to areas beyond without using the downtown surface network - interfering with transit, cyclists, pedestrians, and the downtown's overall wellbeing in the process.

Another issue that's misleading in the debate are the costs used. When do we ever see 100-year lifecycle costs brought to any debate? We don't. If we saw 100-year lifecycle costs for any subway project - like say tunneling below uninhabited farm fields, highways, industrial lots, or big box land in York Region - would people still support it? I'm sure some would, but level-headed people would become a helluva lot more skeptical. As they should. But we don't see that, and we'd be lucky to see 25yr costs. In other words not a century.

As much as people hate the Gardiner, there are few things that we know and are obvious. 1. Elevated highways in TO don't really hinder development or property values. 2. What's being built isn't a new highway, it's an improvement of an existing highway - and this improvement is for everyone's benefit: peds, cyclists, development, etc. 3. We're maintaining a critical link between the DVP and Gardiner, which will invariably help keep non-downtown-bound commuters off the surface network. 4. An elevated highway is actually pretty damn urban (can't think of anywhere else in the prov that has such a thing).

What I'd like to see are people questioning places like York Region for pushing projects like Highway 413, or a Highway 427 extension. People think 2km of narrow elevated highway is bad and un-urban, then what about 200m wide surface highways through countryside that serves little other purpose than to promote more auto-oriented sprawl? We're helping to pay for some of the last vestiges of greenspace in the GTA to be swallowed up, but let's ignore that and focus on the improvement of 2km of existing highway.
 
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I couldn't be happier that the city is spending a reasonable amount ($3.4m) to open the Gardiner fully 4 months early.

Maybe some of you downtown folks don't notice it, but the Gardiner shutdowns have single handedly turned my 20-30 min morning commute into routinely over an hour. The amount of backed up traffic up and down Park Lawn and through the gauntlet of condos at HBS deterioriated streetcar service to the point that people now actively avoid it (especially due to the forced switchover at Humber ) and turned the previously semi reliable 145 express bus into a bumpy 1- 1.5h journey into the city. I couldn't be happier that this is almost done.

Lake Shore Park Lawn and the Queensway are not alternative highways but city streets with their own congestion problems. Dumping an entire morning's worth of Gardiner traffic onto them was horrendous. I can't even deduce how many carcinogens were barfed up right below my condo due to this.
 
I couldn't be happier that the city is spending a reasonable amount ($3.4m) to open the Gardiner fully 4 months early.

Maybe some of you downtown folks don't notice it, but the Gardiner shutdowns have single handedly turned my 20-30 min morning commute into routinely over an hour. The amount of backed up traffic up and down Park Lawn and through the gauntlet of condos at HBS deterioriated streetcar service to the point that people now actively avoid it (especially due to the forced switchover at Humber ) and turned the previously semi reliable 145 express bus into a bumpy 1- 1.5h journey into the city. I couldn't be happier that this is almost done.

Lake Shore Park Lawn and the Queensway are not alternative highways but city streets with their own congestion problems. Dumping an entire morning's worth of Gardiner traffic onto them was horrendous. I can't even deduce how many carcinogens were barfed up right below my condo due to this.

I don't think many are particularly against the notion of speeding up construction - the issue is whether there are any reciprocal attempts to spend more and speed up dealing with other equally if not higher impact delays to the transit system. It was crickets on that front.

AoD
 
I don't think many are particularly against the notion of speeding up construction - the issue is whether there are any reciprocal attempts to spend more and speed up dealing with other equally if not higher impact delays to the transit system. It was crickets on that front.

AoD
The occasional monthly conk out of the subway system does not compare to 2 years of unreasonable traffic in an area with no rapid transit to get people out.
 
The occasional monthly conk out of the subway system does not compare to 2 years of unreasonable traffic in an area with no rapid transit to get people out.

The occasional conk is only the worst of it - as mentioned, there are constant slowdowns, shorter signal problems, cascade failiure of the system as a result of said delays. The problem is far more acute.

AoD
 
The occasional conk is only the worst of it - as mentioned, there are constant slowdowns, shorter signal problems, cascade failiure of the system as a result of said delays. The problem is far more acute.

AoD
Look, ask anyone in South Etobicoke how they feel about both situations and you're going to get nothing but crocodile tears and tiny violins.

These very short subway delays (and monthly hourly shut downs) pale in comparison to not being able to leave your condo from the constant traffic, taking an hour just to go down the 1.5km stretch of Lake Shore to the Humber and no longer being able to rely on any mode of transit (streetcar or bus) to get home. 2 years of this my friend.. it's high time the city pays a little extra to fix it quickly.

Mimico station is not going to solve anything. There is no parking, no transit to get to it and it is a bloody long walk. I live in the closest HBS condo to the station and it's still a 25 min walk for me. Those east of Park Lawn are looking at a minimum 45 min walk to get to the station. And here we are listening to urbanites complaining that walking from King to Queen for the DRL is unreasonable. LMAO
 
Look, ask anyone in South Etobicoke how they feel about both situations and you're going to get nothing but crocodile tears and tiny violins.

These very short subway delays (and monthly hourly shut downs) pale in comparison to not being able to leave your condo from the constant traffic, taking an hour just to go down the 1.5km stretch of Lake Shore to the Humber and no longer being able to rely on any mode of transit (streetcar or bus) to get home. 2 years of this my friend.. it's high time the city pays a little extra to fix it quickly.

I care about it, that's why I support speeding up the construction - but I don't see any quid pro quo regarding major issues facing the transit system - particularly Line 1 - and it is high time there should be. South Etobicoke isn't the only game in town, and you want to get downtown for a reason, no? Let's not mess around the goose that lay the golden egg.

AoD
 
I care about it, that's why I support speeding up the construction - but I don't see any quid pro quo regarding major issues facing the transit system - particularly Line 1 - and it is high time there should be. South Etobicoke isn't the only game in town, and you want to get downtown for a reason, no? Let's not mess around the goose that lay the golden egg.

AoD
Ya because I have to go to work, otherwise I'd never bother going into that congested hell hole anytime from Monday to Friday!

People care about where they live first and foremost. IMO I'm going to take my local issues far more seriously than subway shutdowns that I never experience (as I seldom use it).
 
2017 is when they start on the rebuild of the York-Bay ramp from eastbound Gardiner. Hopefully, it will have a 24-hour work schedule.

(Crossing my fingers) I just hope that the Lakeshore GO train could have its enhanced schedule (15-minute two-way, all-day service, seven days a week between Burlington and Union Station) by then. If not, expect the traffic jams to continue.
 

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