Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[DarnDirtyApe]

I am listening to Filion speak and liked what he said. That 13-0 of councillors living in city of toronto are for boulevard and for those representing the burbs its 24-7 for hybird. That burbs should not be dictating their way of life upon the city is what he said

This is silly; please don't make this another city vs. suburbs issue because it is not. Each ward has residents who support one option or the other based on their own life situations and priorities. I know people who live all over the city and their positions are all over the place too. Each councilor only gets one vote and they have to weigh the pros and cons of all people in the ward. Some councilors have their own ideological biases and aren't necessarily even reflecting the views of residents. We know that incumbents are almost impossible to unseat, so why is it so hard to believe that some councilors are voting against resident's interests?

 

[Tuscani01]

I don't think this will be much of a loss to be honest.

Yea, the Gardiner standing isn't the best thing for the waterfront, but we can definitely guide development in a way that will accommodate a future tear down of the expressway. I mean, the plan for the area with the remove option included buildings where the Gardiner stands now. At least the Gardiner standing will preserve this land, and prevent any development from occurring on it. When it finally does come down, it would make a nice park along the water.

You can undo an expressway, but you can't undo the buildings that would have popped up in its place. And who knows, maybe in a few years there won't even be a need for an 8 lane boulevard either!

 

[Palma]

Yea, Michael Thompson is definitely voting for the boulevard.

Grimes, another undecided I believe, is voting Hybrid.

Shiner just announced his support for the Hybrid too.

guess Tory getting rid f carding helped him. Why is the media not playing that up or the other councillor. Well I hope those land owners fight this which will cause further delay until no option but take it down

 

[Edward Skira]

I don't think this will be much of a loss to be honest.

The loss is the extra $500 million that could be used for something else. Transit, lower taxes or whatever.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

? I just read he's voting boulevard.

Still, not sure if this is premature or not, but The Star is now saying:

Mayor John Tory headed for decisive win on Gardiner East

Mayor John Tory is likely to win his first big council test and looks to be headed for a more decisive victory on the fate of the east Gardiner.

As the debate continued Thursday morning on whether to tear down the eastern portion and build a boulevard or create a hybrid that would maintain the elevated link to the Don Valley Parkway, the votes began to stack up in favour of Tory’s preferred option.

Both Councillors Chin Lee (open Chin Lee's policard) and Giorgio Mammoliti (open Giorgio Mammoliti's policard) officially declared their intentions to vote for the hybrid option on the floor of council as the meeting moved towards a final vote expected later this afternoon.

Ahh typo. My apologies.

 

[Eug]

And who knows, maybe in a few years there won't even be a need for an 8 lane boulevard either!

More like few decades, when they actually build the transit that is needed.

The loss is the extra $500 million that could be used for something else. Transit, lower taxes or whatever.

$500 million is the projection over the next 100 years. You're not going to build too much rapid transit for $5 million. Even in the next decade, that's only $50 million.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

I don't think this will be much of a loss to be honest.

Yea, the Gardiner standing isn't the best thing for the waterfront, but we can definitely guide development in a way that will be accommodate a future tear down of the expressway. I mean, the plan for the area with the remove option included buildings where the Gardiner stands now. At least the Gardiner standing will preserve this land, and prevent any development from occurring on it. When it finally does come down, it would make a nice park along the water.

You can undo an expressway, but you can't undo the buildings that would have popped up in its place. And who knows, maybe in a few years there won't even be a need for an 8 lane boulevard either!

Indeed, once those buildings are up we are stuck with them forever. Maybe in 50 years we will be happy that we didn't build quite so many condos at the mouth of the Don just because the city needed the money. Another reason why a 100 year cost projection is ridiculous; 100 years ago who would have imagined that someone could work from home via the internet and collaborate with anyone in the world, or that cars could drive themselves? I think it's safe to say that the Gardiner won't standing 100 years from now even if we rebuild it today.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

The loss is the extra $500 million that could be used for something else. Transit, lower taxes or whatever.

You know that there won't be any extra money, right? That the $500MM is almost entirely backloaded maintenance costs?

 

[junior43]

I am listening to Filion speak and liked what he said. That 13-0 of councillors living in city of toronto are for boulevard and for those representing the burbs its 24-7 for hybird. That burbs should not be dictating their way of life upon the city is what he said

By that same logic then, downtown councillors should have no say in the Scarborough subway. Careful what you wish for. Then again, by that same logic, the DRL will be a slamdunk.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I am listening to Filion speak and liked what he said. That 13-0 of councillors living in city of toronto are for boulevard and for those representing the burbs its 24-7 for hybird. That burbs should not be dictating their way of life upon the city is what he said

What's interesting is that across the city, there appears to be fairly uniform support for the boulevard in the polling. The only urban/surburban divide exists within council.

 

[Tuscani01]

The loss is the extra $500 million that could be used for something else. Transit, lower taxes or whatever.

Oh come on. We all know that wouldn't be the case anyway. Even if we did save millions by using a different option, it doesn't mean those savings would be money in the bank.

Council wouldn't support an extra $500 million in spending all of a sudden just because the Gardiner was being demolished.

 

[Eug]

What's interesting is that across the city, there appears to be fairly uniform support for the boulevard in the polling. The only urban/surburban divide exists within council.

Which poll? The last poll I read had the hybrid as the preferred option by a small margin, but support for hybrid was skewed toward the outer aspects of the city, and support for boulevard was skewed toward the city centre. Not surprisingly, hybrid is most popular in Scarborough and East York.

http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/297/boulevard-favoured-only-in-downtown

The hybrid option is more strongly preferred among boomers (55 to 65 - 49%), residents of East York (59%), York (55%) and Scarborough (55%), Doug Ford voters from the last mayoral elections (58%), Conservative voters federally (59%), those who approve of Rob Ford (58%) and those who approve of Mark Saunders as police chief (51%). In turn, the boulevard option is more strongly preferred by the oldest (45%), middle income brackets ($60K to $80K - 54%), the very wealthiest ($100K to $250K - 55%), downtown Toronto (53%) and among those who voted for Olivia Chow (65%).

 

[Eug]

...not sure if this is premature or not, but The Star is now saying:

Mayor John Tory headed for decisive win on Gardiner East

Maybe not so premature.

22 hybrid
17 boulevard
3 undecided
2 not responded
1 orange jumpsuit guy

So, out of the 5 remaining unknowns, the hybrids only need one of them to win. Furthermore, assuming someone doesn't change his/her mind, it is now impossible for boulevard to win, since it can only get a maximum of 22.

IOW, the two possible outcomes:

1) Hybrid wins <-- most likely
2) Tie

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

The hybrid option is more strongly preferred among boomers (55 to 65 - 49%), residents of East York (59%), York (55%) and Scarborough (55%), Doug Ford voters from the last mayoral elections (58%), Conservative voters federally (59%), those who approve of Rob Ford (58%) and those who approve of Mark Saunders as police chief (51%). In turn, the boulevard option is more strongly preferred by the oldest (45%), middle income brackets ($60K to $80K - 54%), the very wealthiest ($100K to $250K - 55%), downtown Toronto (53%) and among those who voted for Olivia Chow (65%).[/i]

It's interesting (although not surprising) that most of the so-called "elites" are so strongly in favour of the boulevard; these are the left-leaning, high income, downtown living, older people who are fortunate enough to work at a downtown design firm/university/newspaper/think tank and therefore never actually have to deal with rush hour traffic. In contrast, the working class slob who lives in Scarborough and works near the airport supports the Hybrid option because traffic on the 401 sucks and therefore no highways should be torn down, ever.

 

[Hamiltonian]

This is sad.