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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

Chart would suggest that we could tear out bike lanes too ;).

Kind of on the fence about the Gardiner issue, my question is whether the (really wide) boulevard is actually really a better pedestrian realm than the elevated highway...

Or do we just need to do a better job at elevated structures (ahem, SRT upgrade vs Subway).

One of the more telling things about the 'better pedestrian realm' arguments of an elevated is the amount of lipstick they need to layer onto that pig. We'll get fancy lights and murals at the beginning, but when the salt eats its way through again, the lights will be taken down in favour of repair.
 
I think the boulevard, any boulevard, is without a doubt a better pedestrian realm than the elevated highway.

Given Waterfront Toronto's work on Queens Quay, I have full confidence in them delivering on Lakeshore.
 
You think car trips in the Gardiner will be bigger in 30+ years than it is today?

I think we've reached peak car.

As long as the population of the GTA increases, so will the # of car trips. That has been the trend on all 400-series highways and is why the Gardiner and DVP are jammed pretty much all day long, compared to only the AM & PM peak 20 or even 10 years ago.
 
I see the Gardiner from my office window. It is definitely NOT jammed all day long
 
As long as the population of the GTA increases, so will the # of car trips. That has been the trend on all 400-series highways and is why the Gardiner and DVP are jammed pretty much all day long, compared to only the AM & PM peak 20 or even 10 years ago.

So in 30 years when GO-RER replaces many many car trips heading into the downtown core and oil prices are sky-high making car use unbearably expensive, and we have a working population composed of Millennials who have an aversion to driving, we will have more car trips on the Gardiner than we do currently?

Again, I don't think so. I think we've reached or will soon reach the maximum automobile usage in Toronto's history. Many European cities have already reached peak car, the trend will continue here in Canada.
 
No. The remove crowd is trying to convince everyone that the benefits of removing the Gardiner far outweigh the couple of minutes of delay that those drivers would get. However I don't hear them advocating for taking down the west part of the Gardiner too even though it's only 4% of commuters. Because unlike the eastern part, that wouldn't make much sense according to the facts. But if that's how you want to paint boulevardites, then I will gladly do the same to you.

1. Gardiner supporters only care about how drivers are affected. They couldn't care less about other important considerations such as waterfront revitalization, economic development, public realm or sustainability, because anything the slows down a car for even half a minute is a non starter and that's all that matters. Even if the evidence said it would be zero minutes, they will refuse to believe it anyway no matter how many planners and respected experts come out in favour of the boulevard.

2. Gardiner supporters talk about how slowing down those 3% of commuters will damage the economy, but have nothing to say about the 49% of TTC users who endure daily subway meltdowns and overcrowded buses that causes way more lost time on a daily basis than the 2-3 minutes that drivers are being asked to accept.

3. Gardiner supporters and the drivers who use it have an inflated sense of self-importance in the overall transportation network. Sorry to break it to them but:

4. Gardiner supporters want to unnecessarily spend millions more on a highway when that money could be better spent on transit improvements that benefit way more people.

5. Gardiner supporters talk about "commute times" a lot, but that only refers to the tiny minority of commuters who drive. Commute times of transit users or other non-motorists are not included in their rhetoric. As Denzil Minan Wong said, these are "not real people".

See, I can misrepresent too. Not all hybrid people think like that, but many of them do.

Wow, you guys are really antagonistic to those who challenge the prescribed narrative on here.

I don't disagree with much of what you have wrote, but it should be realized that the primary function of the east Gardiner is to move vehicles across downtown and not into the downtown core.

This is why the focus on the 5,000 commuters into downtown in a single AM hour is very misleading. The road carries over 100,000 cars, buses, transport trucks, emergency vehicles, taxis, construction vehicles, limos every day.

It's vital to have this freeway "ring" connection otherwise dump trucks will be ripping up the local roads in the middle of the night.
 
So in 30 years when GO-RER replaces many many car trips heading into the downtown core and oil prices are sky-high making car use unbearably expensive, and we have a working population composed of Millennials who have an aversion to driving, we will have more car trips on the Gardiner than we do currently?

Again, I don't think so. I think we've reached or will soon reach the maximum automobile usage in Toronto's history. Many European cities have already reached peak car, the trend will continue here in Canada.

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

While the hipster millennials who currently live downtown don't drive, once they realize they want to get married and have a family, they will look to the suburbs to find affordable housing.

The price of gas is not a huge concern as cars are getting more efficient every day and electric cars are already here.

Europe is not the best example as their population is not really growing at all, even declining in some areas. Immigration here plays a huge factor as they suburbs get more saturated. This means more cars will be on the road as the peak periods become stretched out over more hours.
 
While the hipster millennials who currently live downtown don't drive, once they realize they want to get married and have a family, they will look to the suburbs to find affordable housing.

Didn't realize enjoying living in the core makes one a hipster. Guess I need to grow a beard and a man-bun now.

My guess is that the young singles who enjoy living in the core will become young families living in the core as is happening all around me right in my own building. It's possible to raise a family in a two or three bedroom condo and people who enjoy the downtown lifestyle are more and more choosing to forgo the extra space of the burbs to keep that lifestyle.
 
Wow, you guys are really antagonistic to those who challenge the prescribed narrative on here.

I don't disagree with much of what you have wrote, but it should be realized that the primary function of the east Gardiner is to move vehicles across downtown and not into the downtown core.

This is why the focus on the 5,000 commuters into downtown in a single AM hour is very misleading. The road carries over 100,000 cars, buses, transport trucks, emergency vehicles, taxis, construction vehicles, limos every day.

It's vital to have this freeway "ring" connection otherwise dump trucks will be ripping up the local roads in the middle of the night.

Just what percentage of trips on the Gardiner does cross-downtown trips constitute? Somehow the great majority of trips would bypass the greatest node in the region to get to the other side? Show me some data on that claim of the bypass function being the dominant mode please. The dump trucks ripping up local roads at night sounds hysterically hilarious - as if somehow they will choose the most indirect route when the traffic at the lowest level to go out of their way to use the local streets instead of the Boulevard.

AoD
 
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As always Toronto always afraid of change and trying new things. We saw the same thing with the LRT debate.
 
Didn't realize enjoying living in the core makes one a hipster. Guess I need to grow a beard and a man-bun now.

My guess is that the young singles who enjoy living in the core will become young families living in the core as is happening all around me right in my own building. It's possible to raise a family in a two or three bedroom condo and people who enjoy the downtown lifestyle are more and more choosing to forgo the extra space of the burbs to keep that lifestyle.

Or more realistically they will buy small houses in the east and west shoulders of downtown, buy cars when they have their first child, then drive to visit friends or family on the other side of town because the TTC is so slow relative to driving off-peak or they're heading somewhere like Mississauga or Markham. Then they will realize that it was a bad idea to tear down the Gardiner without improving transit because it now takes 30 minutes to clear the "boulevard" during the usual 3PM-8PM clusterf*** that is downtown traffic. Or they will try the 401 and realize that it's also a disaster most of them time too.
 
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