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Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

May 14th Update

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16 minutes to go 2.5km is still slow. Cars are one reason why streetcars are slow, but it's not the only reason.
Cars are point to point and don't need to dwell for passengers, so it's an unfair comparison except on an absolute individual level.

But aside from that…

It's not just about the volume of cars, but the effects they have directly or indirectly.

Why don't all streetcar lines have signal priority for transit? Cars. Why aren't all streetcars on their own ROW? Cars. Why don't we have pedestrian/transit/delivery/taxi only areas in the city? Cars. What frequently park or turn illegally, blocking streetcar tracks? Cars. Why do we have parking on streets with streetcars? Cars.
 
Cars are point to point and don't need to dwell for passengers, so it's an unfair comparison except on an absolute individual level.

But aside from that…

It's not just about the volume of cars, but the effects they have directly or indirectly.

Why don't all streetcar lines have signal priority for transit? Cars. Why aren't all streetcars on their own ROW? Cars. Why don't we have pedestrian/transit/delivery/taxi only areas in the city? Cars. What frequently park or turn illegally, blocking streetcar tracks? Cars. Why do we have parking on streets with streetcars? Cars.
I'm not comparing against cars. 9.4km/h is less than twice as fast as walking lol. And that's when the King pilot was working well.
 
I'm not comparing against cars. 9.4km/h is less than twice as fast as walking lol. And that's when the King pilot was working well.
But it still suffers from a lack of true and proper signal priority. A good tram system should never have to stop for traffic lights, period.

And that average includes rush hours when dwell times are going to be quite a bit longer.
 
Agreed, but Toronto will never. They won't even do it on the Eglinton LRT.
Under Chow there's a chance, but I'm sure some suburban councillor will pull some BS out of their hat as to why they need to dictate the needs of downtown.
 
For the streetcar argument- can you not make more of the network more like LRT? Spadina has dedicated lanes for streetcars, You could do that for other 4 lane roads by keeping the cars off the rails. That will let them move in traffic.

To make the Gardiner construction less of a headache you could install a movable median to adjust the lane count at different times of day. Morning rush could be 3 lanes into downtown, 1 out, and reverse that for the afternoon rush. Keep it 2+2 mid day, evening/overnight and during weekends. That would require a lot of logistics and money to implement.

ex

 
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For the streetcar argument- can you not make more of the network more like LRT? Spadina has dedicated lanes for streetcars, You could do that for other 4 lane roads by keeping the cars off the rails. That will let them move in traffic.
If you've seen how the TTC operates streetcars along Spadina, St.Clair or the Waterfront, you'll know that they're incapable at moving people along with any kind of efficiency whatsoever.

Unfortunately I cant put up a video here of how slow streetcars can move through these ROWs, because I have the perfect illustration of how pathetic service has gotten along these stretches.

I often tell people that if you want to be late anywhere you go, go take a streetcar and it will make it happen for you. Personally they only way I ever rely on the streetcar is if i'm not in a rush to get anywhere, asides from that i'll actively go out of my way to avoid it or reduce the length I have to travel on one.
 
It's sad because in most other places (I'm thinking cities in Europe and even LA) the streetcars/LRT work quite well.

I definitely support giving streetcars a dedicated ROW on streets like King and Queen. But the TTC needs to prove it manage their existing ROWs first
 
If you've seen how the TTC operates streetcars along Spadina, St.Clair or the Waterfront, you'll know that they're incapable at moving people along with any kind of efficiency whatsoever.

Unfortunately I cant put up a video here of how slow streetcars can move through these ROWs, because I have the perfect illustration of how pathetic service has gotten along these stretches.

I often tell people that if you want to be late anywhere you go, go take a streetcar and it will make it happen for you. Personally they only way I ever rely on the streetcar is if i'm not in a rush to get anywhere, asides from that i'll actively go out of my way to avoid it or reduce the length I have to travel on one.
2 summers ago I drove from 1 end of the line to the other, the frequency at the time was every 5-7 mins I believe, I did not see a single vehicle going my direction (eastbound) during the whole 30 min drive. I believe Steve Munro had a piece stating that service is actually worse now vs when there was no ROW
 
If you've seen how the TTC operates streetcars along Spadina, St.Clair or the Waterfront, you'll know that they're incapable at moving people along with any kind of efficiency whatsoever.

Unfortunately I cant put up a video here of how slow streetcars can move through these ROWs, because I have the perfect illustration of how pathetic service has gotten along these stretches.
Yep, Spadina has the slowest average speed of any streetcar even though it has a ROW. 8.6km/h...barely faster than walking.
 
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Yep, Spadina has the slowest average speed of any streetcar even though it has a ROW. 8.6km/h...barely faster than walking.
And yet it's still faster than running a bus.

They do need to remove a couple of stops, and retime the lights though.

Anecdotally though, it seems fast enough from College to Boor. Looking (randomly) at the most recent car to arrive at Spadina (car 4515) the speeds don't look that slow.

Doing the math:
College to Spadina station took 4'34" to go 1.1 km. That's 14.5 km/hr
King St to College St took 11'05" minutes to go 1.45 km. That's 8 km/hr
Spadina/Queens Quay to King took to go 890 metres. That's 7 km/hr.
Union Station to Spadina/Queens Quay took 7'05" to go 1.8 km. That's 15 km/hr.

The two ends (2.9 km total) go a decent enough speed. The 2.35 km from King to College are clearly an issue. Though I don't see how the entire line would average 8 km/h.

I guess that's the issue with anecdotes; someone who rides it from King to Union or from Bloor to College things it does a lot better than someone who rides from King to Chinatown!

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