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Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

Trucks use it for deliveries of: construction materials, commercial/industrial goods, raw material transport, etc. So unless people enjoy seeing those things on their local streets (many of which cant accommodate that due to narrow lane widths in the downtown core) it would be extremely foolish to remove significant portions of the Gardiner.
If the Gardiner was going to be buses and trucks of a minimum size only, I think the people supporting proposals to tear it down would drop significantly. It isn't buses and trucks clogging the Gardiner or local streets, and you could probably thin the Gardiner to one lane each direction.
 
I had a fun experience yesterday ... apparently trucks are instructed to take there left turn onto lakeshore from the don road from the right lane. Some dump truck did as instructed all be it without using there turn single and well thankfully that little communauto rio I was driving had fantastic brakes. Who designed such a stupid thing ..
 
If the Gardiner was going to be buses and trucks of a minimum size only, I think the people supporting proposals to tear it down would drop significantly. It isn't buses and trucks clogging the Gardiner or local streets, and you could probably thin the Gardiner to one lane each direction.
Even trucks, buses and eye watering tolls.

Or maybe some option to put in a cut-and-cover highway with an avenue and/or linear park decked on top.
 
Except, for, you know, the report which was submitted to council in February of this year..


Over $500 million has already been spent by the city on Gardiner East.



None of what I am saying is an "uninformed opinion". At all.


Gardiner East "hybrid" was estimated to have a capital cost of $414 million and $505 million for operations and maintenance over the anticipated 100-year lifecycle. So a total of $919 million.

Gardiner east "removal" was estimated to have a cost of $326-million in up front in capital costs and $135-million for operations and maintenance costs over the anticipated 100-year lifecycle. So a total of $426 million.

So sure, Removal would have saved $458 million, over 100 years. But we have already spent $350 million+ now which would be "throwaway".

Returning to the "hybrid" option would likely increase short term capital costs as there was only a difference of $88 million in up front capital costs between the two.. Lots of cost escalation has occurred since then increasing costs, but I imagine not so much as to offset the $350 million we would be throwing away by switching now.

The city has made the decision on the matter. The city has spent hundreds of millions on it, including roughly half of the entire Gardiner East project. It's literally half-built. Switching now would throw away all of money spent so far, and negate the original cost savings of demolition.
I will repost a previous comment I made in this forum.

"sunk cost fallacy. There is no capital amount we could spend on reconstructing the Gardiner where it would cease to still be overwhelmingly positive to take it down. Reduce emissions, vehicle deaths, emergency response cost to crashes, thousands of new homes, millions in property tax, hundreds of millions (forever) in new economic activity. There is no debate, this has been proven worldwide, Toronto is just insufferably reactionary"

Ignoring the fact that continuing to poorly invest money into something because of a previous mistake makes no sense, this problem cannot be calculated with a simple addition and subtraction of capital costs.

Yet even if we are to take the initial capital cost as the be all end all of this debate, then the way to recapture the bad investment spent on the Jarvis-Cherry rebuild is to commit to a boulevard/teardown option for the entire Gardiner east of Strachan Ave. This rebuild is all set to occur within the decade and will cost the city at least an additional $370 million*, saving which would nullify the $350 million already spent on the Jarvis rebuild. However, the portion of the Gardiner from Strachan Ave to Dan Leckie Way is elevated along what we know as the Bentway, not Lakeshore.
The footprint of the Gardiner here is roughly 373296 square feet, with a square foot of plot land for new developments in downtown Toronto averaging $300 per square foot (https://precondo.ca/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-condo/). A conservate estimate that the city would be able to sell the plot for only $260 per square foot nets the city $97056960, lets say $100 million to keep things simple. There is nearly half a billion dollars to be saved/earned for the city in properly committing to the tear down, without even considering the external long term costs/gains I mentioned in my quoted comment above. When the long term cost is added, there is absolutely no question that the teardown saves money*, regardless of what has been done from Jarvis-Cherry.

"Lots of cost escalation has occurred since then increasing costs, but I imagine not so much as to offset the $350 million we would be throwing away by switching now."

This is not something that we can give the benefit of the doubt. City staff, directed by Tory, continuously used a nearly decade old report to down play the cost of the Gardiner East rebuild which has invoked significant backlash as to how much a rebuild will actual cost the city. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gardiner-east-cost-letter-1.6777697)
Toronto is infamous for it's infrastructure cost inflation, and the Gardiner is no exception to that. Simply hoping costs will not balloon further for this highway is not acceptable.

Ultimately, there is no reality where rebuilding an elevated highway that serves only 7%** of core commuters makes any sense, whether from a financial, social or environmental standpoint.

* (https://www.toronto.ca/services-pay.../gardiner-expressway-rehabilitation-strategy/)
** (https://stevemunro.ca/2014/02/06/the-gardiner-expressway-and-transit-to-downtown/)
 
S
All of what you're saying is true, which is why the Gardiner serves as an alternative route to help alleviate pressures on surrounding roads which helps our local arterials function. Remove the whole things (or a big chunk) and that problem gets significantly worse. No matter if we like it or not, it will always serve as a critical link which connects our city together.

I always point to my example: just take a look at how the streets are in Toronto when the Gardiner is shut down for the weekend. Arterials all over the city are clogged out of their minds. Arterial roads such as:

-Lake Shore Blvd
-The Queensway
-Bloor St/Danforth Ave
-King St
-Richmond/Adelaide
-Queens Quay
-Front St
-Dundas St
-Queen St

It's really not feasible to tear it down, because even as you mentioned our population is only growing so there will be an increasing dependence on it. This is not just for personal commuting by the way. Trucks use it for deliveries of: construction materials, commercial/industrial goods, raw material transport, etc. So unless people enjoy seeing those things on their local streets (many of which cant accommodate that due to narrow lane widths in the downtown core) it would be extremely foolish to remove significant portions of the Gardiner.

And I havent even touched on things like CafeTO, and the efforts to have pedestrian corridors in the city which further limit road capacity in the city.
Using short term, sometimes only hourly, closures of highway and its affects on commuting patterns to project what a long term shift in travel patterns would look like over decades is just deeply unserious. Fundamentally misunderstanding statistics and traffic engineering is not the way to bolster your argument. And no the Gardiner will not grow in importance, it will continue to be a small minority of commuters and we have studies to prove this. Not to be rude but I have no interest in your false guesswork.
demandgrowth.jpg
 
It would be interesting to see how that's progressed in the last decade. I don't think other traffic increased much into the core (pre-Covid at least). And I don't think the TTC increased as much as predicted; but I think GO over-achieved, and possibly walk/cycling increases too.

I had a fun experience yesterday ... apparently trucks are instructed to take there left turn onto lakeshore from the don road from the right lane. Some dump truck did as instructed all be it without using there turn single and well thankfully that little communauto rio I was driving had fantastic brakes. Who designed such a stupid thing ..
I assume by instructed, you mean misinformed.

I similarly lost the front-right corner of my car, in the left-hand turn lane on Islington and Queensway (northbound). The large transport was in one of the two through lanes.

You might say that one should be prepared for that ... and one was, because as the light turned green, it just didn't look right with the truck coming. So it took of the corner of my car, which was still sat at the traffic light, having never moved! And of course disappeared, never to be seen again.
 
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There's really 2 options for "at grade". Originally they were talking about traffic between Gardiner and DVP just turning at the traffic light at Don Roadway (a large roundabout might work better there). Now there's also talk of a small flyover to cut the corner a bit, so that there's less turning at the light.
 
S

Using short term, sometimes only hourly, closures of highway and its affects on commuting patterns to project what a long term shift in travel patterns would look like over decades is just deeply unserious. Fundamentally misunderstanding statistics and traffic engineering is not the way to bolster your argument. And no the Gardiner will not grow in importance, it will continue to be a small minority of commuters and we have studies to prove this. Not to be rude but I have no interest in your false guesswork.
demandgrowth.jpg
Quite frankly it isnt false guesswork, because we see what happens when the Gardiner is shut down for various events/planned maintenance every single year and we have seen the exact same situation play out over the past 20+ years (ie: the same roads that are gridlocked). Yes this might be for a short period of time, but if it's the same situation time and time again I highly doubt that situation would be different if parts of the Gardiner were permanently removed.

Toronto doesnt have many alternatives plain and simple (from a transit perspective) and until we get to that day, the city wouldnt be able to handle the adverse consequences from removing the Gardiner.
 
Quite frankly it isnt false guesswork, because we see what happens when the Gardiner is shut down for various events/planned maintenance every single year and we have seen the exact same situation play out over the past 20+ years (ie: the same roads that are gridlocked). Yes this might be for a short period of time, but if it's the same situation time and time again I highly doubt that situation would be different if parts of the Gardiner were permanently removed.

Toronto doesnt have many alternatives plain and simple (from a transit perspective) and until we get to that day, the city wouldnt be able to handle the adverse consequences from removing the Gardiner.
Toronto not having many transit alternatives to the Gardiner made me laugh. Ignore the crude drawing but I'd say the lakeshore line is a pretty good alternative for the Gardiner.. Tones of parallel streetcar lines too for last-mile journeys. Bus lanes can also be added to the new Blvd so GO buses can pull into union station at a respectable speed. Every argument I hear in defense of keeping the Gardiner talks about why Toronto is different from other cities that have torn down highways or why our transit and road systems just couldn't handle all the congestion. If our roads can't handle it then we should get people off the roads where possible, if transit isn't a good alternative than invest in improvements or new lines. No one who supports the Gardiner does so because they want Toronto to be a better city. Freeway removals have made cities like San Francisco, Seoul, and many smaller cities nicer places to live, its a shame we don't have that kind of ambition in Toronto.

Screenshot 2023-07-01 180238.png
 
Quite frankly it isnt false guesswork, because we see what happens when the Gardiner is shut down for various events/planned maintenance every single year and we have seen the exact same situation play out over the past 20+ years (ie: the same roads that are gridlocked). Yes this might be for a short period of time, but if it's the same situation time and time again I highly doubt that situation would be different if parts of the Gardiner were permanently removed.

Toronto doesnt have many alternatives plain and simple (from a transit perspective) and until we get to that day, the city wouldnt be able to handle the adverse consequences from removing the Gardiner.
Congestion is bad for a short time after a road closure but after a few weeks travel patterns adjust. We see it time and again when capacity is removed.
 
What makes me laugh is the abundance of people who think that removal of a short stretch of highway while keeping 85% of it in place (counting both the Gardiner and DVP), and replacing that short stretch with a monstrous 10-lane boulevard, somehow turns Toronto into a better city. And theating that as a hill to die on.

Many cities removed their central highways, fine. But how many of them replaced the former highway with anything like a 10-lanes stroad.
 
How exactly do you guys want ppl to enter downtown? Removing the Gardner won't displace the cars, they'll still have to be a way/place where all those cars go. Removing that lakeshore ramp just made lakeshore more congested
 
How exactly do you guys want ppl to enter downtown? Removing the Gardner won't displace the cars, they'll still have to be a way/place where all those cars go. Removing that lakeshore ramp just made lakeshore more congested
I think they think that everyone will use public transit instead at least that's what the concessions among the supporters for the idea that we don't need it.
 
Removing that lakeshore ramp just made lakeshore more congested
The one that was just east of the Don Roadway? That's temporary; there'll be a new ramp just west of the Don Roadway. So the Jarvis ramp will go back to the way it was.
 

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