|
|
|
Road Tolls
- Thread starter hawc
- Start date
Good article. This quote though struck me as kind of odd. Yes, it's true that operating costs will decrease as economies of scale kick in. However, it's not the operating costs that are an issue, it's the capital. In order for transit to really compete, it really needs increased capacity, increased frequency, and increased connectivity. None of that can happen without a surge in capital investment.
Ed Drass
Active Member
Yes, a further question is whether that capital must/can only be raised in the government-centric model. Note that Coyne's obviously conservative perspective would presume private-sector involvement.
Whoever is fronting the cash ... introducing tolls would immediately spike demand for transit service and the heavy infrastructure cannot be built overnight -- you'd be relying on instant bus lanes on existing roads.
But this gets awfully far along the ideal-transport-funding-model -- and I dare say we would need a major crisis to change our current trajectory of ever-more crowding on road and rail.
-ed
This is exactly what I proposed a few pages ago in this thread that the GO REX expansions be built using bonds, and then tolls would start being charged the day that the GO REX lines opened. That way GO has the capacity to handle the surge in demand that would accompany tolling.
The toll revenues would then be used partially as debt payments for the GO REX system, and partially to fund future transit and road infrastructure projects.
Unless you have sufficient transit infrastructure to turn to when you start tolling, all it is going to do is piss people off.
nfitz
Superstar
Right, because people who will still be driving won't be pissed off at all if there's a GO Train they aren't using.
People are going to be pissed off, period.
London didn't have extra capacity available when they put their congestion charge in. Even now, the nightmare at some tube stations in peak periods makes Yonge-Bloor look like a quiet colonial outpost.
I know what you mean, but my point is that right now there are only a handful of GO Trains in the AM peak coming in from Brampton, most of which are already packed. Tolling is going to increase demand on GO, but as it stands right now, does GO have the ability to increase the frequency on the line? Maybe a bit, but certainly not enough to respond to that surge in demand.
GO REX would provide a huge surge in both capacity and frequency, and give GO the ability to more easily scale operations up or down, to respond to the surge in ridership that tolling is sure to bring.
And yes, people are going to be pissed off no matter what, but the question is what will they be pissed off at? The tolls themselves, or the lack of a viable alternative in order to avoid the tolls? If you give them a viable alternative, then they're really just pissed off at having to pay for what used to be free. If you don't give them a viable alternative, their choice is to pay for something that used to be free, or to pack themselves onto an overcrowded transit system that isn't convenient for them to take in the 1st place.
nfitz
Superstar
GO capacity will gradually increase over the next couple of decades.
The same way it's gradually increased over the last 5 decades.
At some point you just have to throw the switch.
Though I expect that tolling won't occur, because it will be too controversial, and many will fear that it's the kind of thing that could trigger the election of Ford-like populists.
The same way it's gradually increased over the last 5 decades.
At some point you just have to throw the switch.
Though I expect that tolling won't occur, because it will be too controversial, and many will fear that it's the kind of thing that could trigger the election of Ford-like populists.
Dan416
Senior Member
An express/collector system would be nice for the 410, but considering the 401 is only getting it now in Mississauga, I don't see the 410 getting it, well, ever.
Electrify
Senior Member
The toll on highways to make transit argument is a good point. During rush hour, you can take a Zum bus on the 407 express to the Vaughan-Brampton boundary for a standard $2.60 ticket! No matter how you look at it, there is no way driving is remotely cheaper than that kind of deal!
Eug
Senior Member
Only if you don't factor in the increase in time required for taking the bus, including travel time to and from the bus stations, waiting for the bus, etc.
But there are two factors that can potentially contribute to building it:
1) Increased revenue from tolls on other highways can go into the widening of the 410 (even if most of the money from tolls is directed to transit, there will still be, and there still should be, a net increase in the amount going to highways).
2) The Province is more likely to prioritize projects that will have a toll component, because that means increased on-going revenue. $100 million on a highway project in the GTA is more cost-effective than a $100 million highway project in Northern Ontario, because the GTA project will eventually cover that $100 million through tolls.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
With pieces falling from the Gardiner Expressway over the past few days, do you think there will now be a major push from City Council to implement a tax (i.e. road rolls) to replace this piece of infrastructure?
hawc
Senior Member
Nope not in a million years would Ford push for road tolls, nor should he. Re-allocate existing money from less pressing projects if necessary. Learn to spend within your budget rather then simply raising taxes (toll) everytime you want something new. I think most kids learn this when they get an allowance. Apparently it's lost on our concellors. You can't have it all. If patching up the Gardiner is a more pressing emergency than fixing potholes or doing a John St rejuvination then so be it. It's all about living within your means. It can be done, it's just not as fun and requires more discipline.
nfitz
Superstar
Live within what budget though. Toronto's taxes are already lower than most surrounding municipalities, both for basic rates, and when you compare what an average house pays compared to other municipalities.
Meanwhile, we have huge problems providing necessary services, with little fat to cut.
Comes a point, where you have to stop lowering taxes, and actually raise them.
Meanwhile, we have huge problems providing necessary services, with little fat to cut.
Comes a point, where you have to stop lowering taxes, and actually raise them.
pman
Senior Member
Road tolls aren't taxes, they're fees for using a scarce publicly provided resource. Given the high cost of GTA traffic congestion, it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge drivers for using the system, at least in peak periods. Toll revenues can be used to reduce taxes or to fund transit expansion, but either way if they get some drivers off the roads then everyone benefits - society in general through less environmental damage in the short run and maybe even less new sprawl in the long run, and remaining drivers through less peak period congestion.