ADRM
Senior Member
100% -- this is definitely the behaviour that I most often (and very frequently) feel endangered by when I'm walking around, especially people blowing through rights on reds.
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Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan
- Thread starter salsa
- Start date
100% -- this is definitely the behaviour that I most often (and very frequently) feel endangered by when I'm walking around, especially people blowing through rights on reds.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
tiffer24
Senior Member
A woman was seriously hurt, with her leg pinned beneath a tire, after a van reversed into her in the parking lot of an apartment building in Toronto’s Downsview area overnight.
Toronto paramedics say they were called to 3018 Keele Street at 12:15 a.m. for a report of a pedestrian struck. Police said they found a woman pinned under a tire of a van that had backed up into her. Witnesses told CP24 they heard loud screams of a woman who was calling for help.
Firefighters assisted to raise the van so the woman could be removed.
https://www.cp24.com/news/woman-s-leg-pinned-after-van-backs-into-her-in-downsview-1.4872414
Toronto paramedics say they were called to 3018 Keele Street at 12:15 a.m. for a report of a pedestrian struck. Police said they found a woman pinned under a tire of a van that had backed up into her. Witnesses told CP24 they heard loud screams of a woman who was calling for help.
Firefighters assisted to raise the van so the woman could be removed.
https://www.cp24.com/news/woman-s-leg-pinned-after-van-backs-into-her-in-downsview-1.4872414
W. K. Lis
Superstar
pman
Senior Member
They’re used in other places, but I wonder if they’d fail here. I don’t believe most Toronto drivers would be able to mentally process the complexity of a zig zag line, or would in any way alter their behaviour if they did understand. For example, we have lots of “speed limit” signs and they have impressive numbers, but they are pretty much universally ignored. I know this for a fact because when I return from Sydney every northern spring I drive the posted limit automatically, because that’s what the vast majority of drivers do there so I’m habituated to it. Much close tailgating and suicide passing ensues when I do that here. It takes me a couple weeks to revert back to driving like a Torontonian.
In general, we have a culture of disregard for pretty much all traffic laws, aside from red lights which we do seem to obey, with minimal enforcement and penalties that are demonstrably insufficient deterrents to dangerous behaviour. I suspect the only thing that would change driver behaviour is physical redesign of streets and intersections so that speeding cars would suffer damage. The asshole who was recently caught doing 149 in a 50 zone wouldn’t have been physically able to do that if the street had frequent lane narrowing and speed bumps at pedestrian refuges, and roundabouts at intersections with multiple raised pedestrian crossings and speed bumps just before entering them. Both of those features are pretty common outside North America, and they do appear to work.
In general, we have a culture of disregard for pretty much all traffic laws, aside from red lights which we do seem to obey, with minimal enforcement and penalties that are demonstrably insufficient deterrents to dangerous behaviour. I suspect the only thing that would change driver behaviour is physical redesign of streets and intersections so that speeding cars would suffer damage. The asshole who was recently caught doing 149 in a 50 zone wouldn’t have been physically able to do that if the street had frequent lane narrowing and speed bumps at pedestrian refuges, and roundabouts at intersections with multiple raised pedestrian crossings and speed bumps just before entering them. Both of those features are pretty common outside North America, and they do appear to work.
junctionist
Senior Member
Easiest way to reduce that is with 90 degree sharp corners.
I agree, yet it seems like the city is installing rounded corners everywhere now despite all the accidents involving pedestrians and Vision Zero. Rounded corners mean that drivers can make right turns at higher speeds, which makes injuries more likely if they hit a pedestrian by being inattentive.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
What we’re lacking is enforcement. Think how often you see a Toronto police officer on your daily commuting around the city. If they’re not on paid duty or just leaving the local division office I hardly see them. And when you do see TPS enforcing anything traffic related it‘s a speed trap. IMO, speed doesn’t kill, but running stop signs, pedestrian crossings and traffic lights does.
The challenge we face in Toronto is the massively expensive cost of a single police officer. With salary, benefits and pension it’s at least $100k a year, and much more once they’ve served five years or more. If we want effective traffic enforcement we need hundreds more TPS dedicated to traffic, but how do you pay for that?
pman
Senior Member
1. Cameras. New South Wales has huge numbers of red light cameras, speed cameras, average speed cameras, cameras monitoring bus lane compliance, and just implemented cameras using AI to determine if drivers are on their phones. Of course, one doesn’t see the dark plastic licence-obscuring panels there that are now becoming common in the GTA. Which kind of says it all about Toronto IMO. Plus I’ve never read about anyone disabling or stealing a traffic camera there.
2. Two huge fines for non-compliance, without a judicial or quasi-judicial process, and without roadside let’s make a deal leniency from cops who really don’t take this speed limit nonsense seriously.
3. Charter fans clutch pearls here - random breathalyzer checks. In three months driving there about the same amount I drive here I’ll be stopped at least once for zero probable cause and ordered to breathe on the machine. And in the most unlikely places and times. Works for me.
2. Two huge fines for non-compliance, without a judicial or quasi-judicial process, and without roadside let’s make a deal leniency from cops who really don’t take this speed limit nonsense seriously.
3. Charter fans clutch pearls here - random breathalyzer checks. In three months driving there about the same amount I drive here I’ll be stopped at least once for zero probable cause and ordered to breathe on the machine. And in the most unlikely places and times. Works for me.
DSC
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I have always wondered why it is obligatory to erect signage saying Red Light Camera - seems a great waste of $$$ to me and adds to street clutter. You should stop at ALL red lights, not just those with cameras!!
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salsa
Senior Member
lenaitch
Senior Member
Because the penalty structure changes. Those zone limits are defined by regulation or bylaw (depending on jurisdiction) so everybody, including the cops and courts need to know which rules apply.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
No, no.... cameras are revenue generation, not enforcement or much deterrence. Huge fines I can agree with, as the revenue can go to policing, especially if the costly appeals process is done away with.
But the best place to start is with driver examination and licensing. Judging by what I see, half of the people I see driving should never have received their license.
pman
Senior Member
Disagree with you completely on cameras. They’re ubiquitous in Sydney and they work. When I drive there I know there’s a good chance I’ll be fined if I’m speeding, because of a camera not a cop. No jurisdiction has the money to deploy enough police to cause a widespread change in driver behaviour, and with technology there’s no need to try. Cameras are no more a money grab than roadside cops with radar guns. They perform the exact same function, but a lot less expensively.
Totally agree on testing and licensing. It’s only anecdotal, but a buddy who moved to London told me that his UK driving test required him to parallel park some insanely small distance from the kerb - as they spell it - on the first attempt.
And while I’m ranting, fart mufflers WTF???
Admiral Beez
Superstar
But speeding is not the issue. It’s not even people running straight through red lights. No, it’s drivers running stop signs, turning right on reds without stopping and running pedestrian crossings that are killing people. We’d need a camera on every stop sign, or a sensor in every car.
pman
Senior Member
I think speeding is one of the issues, actually. There’s a lot of evidence that hitting a pedestrian at 30km/h is significantly less damaging than hitting them at 40km/h. Even the City of Toronto has finally recognized that, and has changed some of the numbers on its signs as a result. Big deal. Cameras enforce compliance full stop, in a far more cost-effective manner than hiring an army of traffic cops. As do speed bumps, lane narrowing, roundabouts and ruthlessly enforced zebra crossings. But AB, I’m truly curious about your dismissal of cameras as part of the solution. Admittedly NSW is the only comparison about which I have any truly intimate knowledge, but I guarantee you they’re a big part of the equation there, and getting even bigger with the implementation of AI to detect driver phone use.
However, speeding is by no means the only issue. RTOR is a nutso Ontario thing that has no place in a city. I’ve driven a fair amount in Europe and the UK over the years, in addition to Australia, and just assume RTOR is illegal in other cities. Since I generally don’t get honked at while stopped at a red with my right (or left as the case may be) turn signal on, I’m guessing most jurisdictions ban it. Furthermore, our lack of mid-street pedestrian refuges as a matter of standard design is absurd. And our oh-so-Toronto glacially slow progress on physically segregated bike lanes is sad.
I’m by no means suggesting that a massive roll out of cameras would be sufficient to implement an honest Vision Zero, only that cameras are a proven and important part of the solution.
However, speeding is by no means the only issue. RTOR is a nutso Ontario thing that has no place in a city. I’ve driven a fair amount in Europe and the UK over the years, in addition to Australia, and just assume RTOR is illegal in other cities. Since I generally don’t get honked at while stopped at a red with my right (or left as the case may be) turn signal on, I’m guessing most jurisdictions ban it. Furthermore, our lack of mid-street pedestrian refuges as a matter of standard design is absurd. And our oh-so-Toronto glacially slow progress on physically segregated bike lanes is sad.
I’m by no means suggesting that a massive roll out of cameras would be sufficient to implement an honest Vision Zero, only that cameras are a proven and important part of the solution.