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Riverdale

Question for Riverdale locals:

With the slow decline of the Gerrard East Chinatown, has there also been a noticeable decline in the Chinese population in Riverdale? I recall in the 90s and early 00s a sizeable Chinese population between roughly Riverdale Ave/Boultbee, Dundas, the DVP and Greenwood.
 
Question for Riverdale locals:

With the slow decline of the Gerrard East Chinatown, has there also been a noticeable decline in the Chinese population in Riverdale? I recall in the 90s and early 00s a sizeable Chinese population between roughly Riverdale Ave/Boultbee, Dundas, the DVP and Greenwood.

We moved into the hood in 1985, just east of Broadview on Simpson. The Asian population -- I would say, although can't be sure -- was mostly Vietnamese. This would make sense as that great wave of Vietnamese would have landed in the late 70s and Gerrard/Broadview was pretty low-rent. In any case, The area was very very heavily Chinese/Vietnamese. So much so that, on Sundays, there was no parking on Simpson because of all the Asian shoppers, dim summers and diners would descend on us.

Every hair salon catered to Asian hair. Every grocery was Asian owned. Every restaurant. Every bakery. And there were quite a number of "spas."

There was also a bit of a gang problem. Once, a SWAT type police team (I forget what they call these in Toronto) descended on a rooming house around the corner. People who lived on the north side of First Avenue were getting mugged in their laneway.

The area is now a shadow of its Asian self with, I am guessing, the majority of families having vastly improved their lot as most immigrants do and moving away from the grotty areas they remember post-arrival into sparkling new developments in the 'burbs. It's the Great Canadian Urban Immigrant Dream, is it not?
 
Normally the spring is when new businesses open on the Danforth, so they can get established before Waste of the Danforth begins in August. Historically a lot of they them close the next February. I walked by earlier today and Piccadilly Deli has been cleared out completely and is now closed. The kitchen appliances, tables and interior fixture have all been removed. They had problems recruiting staff, and the rent was probably a small ransom, it is unfortunate that small mom and pop shops have such obstacles. Walking from Logan to Pape, one can't help but notice all the empty storefronts this year. Seems like its more than in the past.

The other day, we drove cross town along Bloor, from Broadview to High Park. I had not really checked out the street west of Spadina in a long long time. I was stunned by how many new stores, cafes, restaurants etc. lined both sides of the street. Most of them seem to be independently-owned. Oh sure. There are some notable closures and chains. The Brunswick is now a Rexall, for example. But, overall, it's a totally different streetscape from Riverdale's Danforth.

How can that be?

One thing might be density. I am pretty sure the west end is MUCH higher density, with older, more tightly squeezed rows and semis as well as larger Annex houses subdivided into apartments. Plus U. of T. students.

Another is, traffic. It's jut impossible to drive and park and shop along there whereas on Danforth, as walkable as it is, it's not demand walkable as Bloor is. It's much easier to own a car on this side and, hence, drive out to Walmart or wherever.

Another theory: Danforth was heavily dependent on high Greek traffic, whether from the local Greeks or those who came down from their 905 houses. No longer. They are mostly gone and, my observation is, most of the Greek restaurants are frequented by mostly non-Greeks.

Finally, GREED. It may well be easier to write-off empty spaces than to rent them.

Discuss.
 
The other day, we drove cross town along Bloor, from Broadview to High Park. I had not really checked out the street west of Spadina in a long long time. I was stunned by how many new stores, cafes, restaurants etc. lined both sides of the street. Most of them seem to be independently-owned. Oh sure. There are some notable closures and chains. The Brunswick is now a Rexall, for example. But, overall, it's a totally different streetscape from Riverdale's Danforth.

How can that be?

One thing might be density. I am pretty sure the west end is MUCH higher density, with older, more tightly squeezed rows and semis as well as larger Annex houses subdivided into apartments. Plus U. of T. students.

Another is, traffic. It's jut impossible to drive and park and shop along there whereas on Danforth, as walkable as it is, it's not demand walkable as Bloor is. It's much easier to own a car on this side and, hence, drive out to Walmart or wherever.

Another theory: Danforth was heavily dependent on high Greek traffic, whether from the local Greeks or those who came down from their 905 houses. No longer. They are mostly gone and, my observation is, most of the Greek restaurants are frequented by mostly non-Greeks.

Finally, GREED. It may well be easier to write-off empty spaces than to rent them.

Discuss.


One thing that I think is maintaining the Danforth's charm is the absence of the 'premium casual' chains that are spreading like a virus across suburban power centres and downtown – Moxie's, Milestones, Cactus Club, Earls, etc. I think it's only a matter of time that one pops up, particularly in one of the larger corner lot restaurant spaces.

I think Greek, East and South European millennials from the 905 still frequent the Danforth on the weekend. They start off their evenings at clubs and end up in the restaurants after midnight.

I think the older Greek generation is spending less time on the Danforth. Many moved out to Scarborough in the 90s and York Region in the last decade. Most of the surviving social clubs are on Pape, north of the Danforth.
 
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One thing that I think is maintaining the Danforth's charm is the absence of the 'premium casual' chains that are spreading like a virus across suburban power centres and downtown – Moxie's, Milestones, Cactus Club, Earls, etc. I think it's only a matter of time that one pops up, particularly in one of the larger corner lot restaurant spaces.

I think Greek, East and South European millennials from the 905 still frequent the Danforth on the weekend. They start off their evenings at clubs and end up in the restaurants after midnight.

I think the older Greek generation is spending less time on the Danforth. Many moved out to Scarborough in the 90s and York Region in the last decade. Most of the surviving social clubs are on Pape, north of the Danforth.

For the record, I didn't notice any of those chains last week on Bloor, at least not west of Spadina. Maybe my mind just glazed over them.

As for the millennials, you are probably correct -- although we are rarely out on the Danforth that late anymore. (We did used to go dancing at a Greek "disco" that, for a time, occupied the downstairs space south side, near Chester.) The thing is, those millennials aren't shopping on the Danforth and they are only eating at the places that stay open late. Souvlaki joints mostly, right? The Auld Spot kitchen is also open late, or at least it used to be.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't that the people who have been bidding insane amounts for houses in the area are now too house poor to shop or eat in the area. It's easier and cheaper to hit Winners, Costco or Walmart to clothe the kids. Working people have less time to go from butcher to baker to fishmonger to produce store. One stop at Loblaw's or Sobey's or Longo's or No-Frills is easier and cheaper.
 
One thing that I think is maintaining the Danforth's charm is the absence of the 'premium casual' chains that are spreading like a virus across suburban power centres and downtown – Moxie's, Milestones, Cactus Club, Earls, etc. I think it's only a matter of time that one pops up, particularly in one of the larger corner lot restaurant spaces.

While its nice that these places haven't taken it over, I do think all the new pizzeria, sushi, wing places etc. do kinda of take away from the strip now.
 
According to 2016 statistics published by the Small Business Administration (SBA), about 78% of small business startups survive the first year and about half of all employer establishments survive at least five years. A third survive ten years or more.

This is a far cry from the previous long-held belief that 50 percent of businesses fail in the first year and 95 percent fail within five years.
 
A few thoughts to contribute.

- If the Green P opposite Chester station is any indication, the strip should be healthy. When I passed by the other day, mid-afternoon, on a weekday, the lot was literally full.

(I wonder how many commuters park here and use it as a park and ride, the daily max is $8 I believe, which when compared to DT is a bargain, if the lot is being used that way, it could be injuring local business to some degree).

- There definitely are landlords sitting on vacant units, hoping, waiting, for the big chain that will pay higher psf, make improvements and be a reliable source of revenue.

The vacancy rebate from the City has promoted this sort of conduct. Council just voted to ditch it, that should help a bit.

- Greater density may be helpful over the longer term, along with dis-incentivising multi-car households (by substantially raising permit parking rates)

But that doesn't create an instant shift, so wouldn't change much in the near-term.

- The Big Carrot is always quite busy when I'm in there, so there remains a market for higher end product in the hood.

- There have been demographic changes which may not favour greek-focussed businesses in the way that was once the case.
 
according to the new 2016 census, the area is quite low in population density..about 4.67 to 5.58 persons per square km
density-map.jpg


full story
https://www.thestar.com/business/20...despite-overall-population-growth-report.html
 
Greektown is perfectly healthy. Restaurants often fail, which is why banks almost never lend to them. Between the time they go out of business and the time a new tenant moves in you sometimes get an empty storefront. Another reason why we see empty storefronts in many places is because landlords are holding out for higher rent. We see this in Queen East, Queen West, the Danforth, and other locations also.

Should East Chinatown still be considered a neighborhood on the decline? There have been lots of non-Asian businesses move into the area over the last few years, which seems to signal a revitalization.
 
My mom would spend a lot of time on the Danforth back in the 90s/2000s, but once the mom n pop places starting closing down things started to change, the demise of places like sun valley, Greek house food market, Labiri shoes etc was the last straw, everything she needs now she gets at seranos, she has her catch ups with her friends at one of the Greek places along pape, unless it's a special event family gathering at one of the restos she doesn't bother with the main drag, my dad is the same hangs out one of those old school social club places on pape, would be lucky to walk the Danforth once a week now. Most of the Greek day time foot traffic is elderly Greeks going to see a Greek doctor or something lol, you still get your oldies packing the tim hortons at Logan and a couple of other spots but theirs just nothing interesting for them on the strip anymore. Also in the last 5 years the greek community/newspapers have actively starting promoting Greek business on pape which was previously an afterthought, Greek world music/DVD store recently moved to pape village which is a sign of the times. So basically Greek life has become a bit more spread out now, still in the same area but doesn't have the same compact vibe from back in the day.

I have no interest in the club scene but most of my younger relatives head in on the weekend evenings to places like fantasia and logo bar, the souvlaki joints benefit from this. It is true Greeks don't really eat at the Greek restaurants anymore, the new one anestis is popular but Greeks have changed and are more into simple dining, souvlaki and frappe is where its at now, cafe life you could say, the restos are outdated and largely benefit from the non Greek crowds who think flaming cheese is something that's common in Greece lol. Basically the Danforth has too many similar Greek restaurants, places like cafe frappe, logo bar etc (more laid back) are what Greeks are more into these days. The reality is you're more likely to find a 3rd generation Greek at some hipster joint along the Danforth as opposed to a Greek resto, greektown once upon a time was a healthy split between Greek food/Greek shops, now its increasingly becoming just Greek food, yes you still have your Greek jewellery shop, greek pharmacies, barbers etc, but it's just not the same.

That's my take on it all from a Greek perspective, fwiw I spend more time along pape now.
 
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Surprised Piccadilly went belly up so quickly. They were open on the weekend. I can only imagine they were out of their depth. The rent was undoubtedly, as you say, a ransom - I posted in this thread a year or so ago about what I heard about the rent for the sushi place next door, which I can only imagine is being bankrolled by a rich/indulgent family.

There are way more vacancies than I have ever seen.
 
My mom would spend a lot of time on the Danforth back in the 90s/2000s, but once the mom n pop places starting closing down things started to change, the demise of places like sun valley, Greek house food market, Labiri shoes etc was the last straw, everything she needs now she gets at seranos, she has her catch ups with her friends at one of the Greek places along pape, unless it's a special event family gathering at one of the restos she doesn't bother with the main drag, my dad is the same hangs out one of those old school social club places on pape, would be lucky to walk the Danforth once a week now. Most of the Greek day time foot traffic is elderly Greeks going to see a Greek doctor or something lol, you still get your oldies packing the tim hortons at Logan and a couple of other spots but theirs just nothing interesting for them on the strip anymore. Also in the last 5 years the greek community/newspapers have actively starting promoting Greek business on pape which was previously an afterthought, Greek world music/DVD store recently moved to pape village which is a sign of the times. So basically Greek life has become a bit more spread out now, still in the same area but doesn't have the same compact vibe from back in the day.

I have no interest in the club scene but most of my younger relatives head in on the weekend evenings to places like fantasia and logo bar, the souvlaki joints benefit from this. It is true Greeks don't really eat at the Greek restaurants anymore, the new one anestis is popular but Greeks have changed and are more into simple dining, souvlaki and frappe is where its at now, cafe life you could say, the restos are outdated and largely benefit from the non Greek crowds who think flaming cheese is something that's common in Greece lol. Basically the Danforth has too many similar Greek restaurants, places like cafe frappe, logo bar etc (more laid back) are what Greeks are more into these days. The reality is you're more likely to find a 3rd generation Greek at some hipster joint along the Danforth as opposed to a Greek resto, greektown once upon a time was a healthy split between Greek food/Greek shops, now its increasingly becoming just Greek food, yes you still have your Greek jewellery shop, greek pharmacies, barbers etc, but it's just not the same.

That's my take on it all from a Greek perspective, fwiw I spend more time along pape now.

I still weep for Labiri! I used to buy all my shoes and bags there. I bought my first outfit at Maxi in 1985. Another one gone. RK, another fave (although it wasn't Greek and was part of a mini-chain.) For my nieces, I would buy at a store (forget the name but it was Greek) next to Sophia's Lingerie, which is thankfully still around. 100 Mile Child will be closing its doors by the way. I believe that building is owned by the owner of Body Blue, another survivor (although not Greek-owned.) I used to be hats and gloves at Felicia's, just west of Logan. I also would have suits made at Sunde, across from Sun Valley and now a Caribbean resto I think.

While I do blame the landlords (and landladies), I can't lay it at their feet completely. The demographics changed. The shopping habits changed. Cheap fast fashion, the penchant for wearing yoga pants everywhere, etc. destroyed the local market.

Sure, the Greeks moved along Pape -- and BTW Geo21 you completely left of McD's at Cosburn, a hotbed of Greek gossipers and political debaters over coffee every evening -- but the local Greeks weren't the main clients at Labiri etc. The Greek shoppers would come in East York and beyond. You just HAD to buy the spangly sexy dress for your cousin's wedding at Maxi's for example. I still have pieces from there, as well as from Studio Labiri, the daughters' effort which was where that second hand bookstore now is next to Pizza Libretto.

Bottom line, from about 1997-2007 Danforth was a FASHION (and wedding gown) destination. (Other survivors: Erietta and Aroo in the Carrot Common, Legs Beautiful, Beckers Bridals, a couple more shoestores, that beautiful leather place which just moved to the north side from the south at the western end of Danforth, etc.) Even most of the wedding gown stores are toast.

I never had to go anywhere else to shop for stuff, except maybe workout shoes and wear. (We needed a Lululemon!)

But the critical mass disappeared as store after store died. Then, I am guessing, it just wasn't worth coming down to the Danforth if you couldn't buy your gown at Maxi and then walk over to Labiri for your shoes and Sophia's (which is still there) or Avec Plaisir (RIP) for something sexy to hold it all in and up.

So the ladies would come in, shop, have lunch, maybe pick up groceries at Sun Valley, drop into (say) IQ Living and keep the strip alive.
 

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