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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

Buffalo and Detroit! What destinations! Where shall I plan a trip to first?

Seriously, can we just by-pass those two rotting wrecks and head straight to Chicago and New York? Oh, pretty please.
 
^Well, nobody said that the train had to terminate in Buffalo. It could go on to NYC, though that's a pretty long trip - even for a HSR train.

As for Detroit, it's still a bigger metropolitan area than anything in Canada other than Toronto, albeit with all of the potential users/population dispersed in the suburbs. It's also worth mentioning that Detroit's airport is even busier than Pearson, being the second largest Northwest/Delta hub. One of the roles of HSR should be to transport people to major airports in a region; this is certainly a major application of HSR in Europe.
 
Buffalo and Detroit are both important airports for niagara and southwestern Ontario respectively.

I think the ideal would be to have US pre-clearance at Toronto, Hamilton, London at least for American trains from Chicago or New York to extend up to Toronto. Additionally Buffalo, Detroit, and their airports could have Canadian pre-clearance to allow Canadian trains to extend into the U.S.
 
Buffalo and Detroit! What destinations! Where shall I plan a trip to first?

Seriously, can we just by-pass those two rotting wrecks and head straight to Chicago and New York? Oh, pretty please.

There will be a Chicago-Detroit HSR and New York - Buffalo HSR on the US side to connect to. The point is that it makes sense to have a single customs point on a line so that all passengers on the train are in a single country. The Montreal - New York service would do customs in Canada because there is no place within Canada south of Montreal worth stopping at and all locations south of Montreal are too close to the city (Montreal is less than 50km from the border) to serve with HSR. Any Vancouver service to the US would also make sense to clear customs in Canada. It doesn't make sense to by-pass Canadian locations on any Toronto HSR service to the USA becase the points passed on route are significant trip generators and the distance to the border is significant enough to warrant stops.

If you decide to have multiple customs points along a line you need to either (A) lock doors between cars and have complicated boarding and deboarding procedures, or (B) duplicate services with trains on the way to the US not allowing on any Canadian passengers going to Canadian destinations further along the route which dilutes the demand for any particular train. Maybe at some point the number of passengers going non-stop Toronto to Chicago or New York would be significant enough that the intermediate stops wouldn't be required to make the train cost effective but that likely wouldn't be the case initially. Also, the less time a train spends travelling in a country uncleared or pre-cleared the more comfortable authorities will be.
 
But it is the fact that the US has a foreign policy which at times acts in a dictatorial fashion toward other countries that we should be forging closer ties to Europe and the international community instead of the US so that our being a country can mean having our own policies and opinions. Partnering closely with a country that has no qualms using strong arm tactics to force countries to give in to its demands means the US election in which we have no vote means more to Canada that our own election. Heaven forbid the US Republicans decide that its trade tactics work so well that it decides to tie trade to law harmonization (e.g. family law, gun law, drug law, etc). A partnership with the US is often simply doing whatever the US says. That isn't a partnership like the EU has in place. By keeping the border crossing in place we at least allow ourselves to make some decisions on our own rather than simply adopting US policy which is not going to change for lowly Canadians.

That is all fine....and if we want a more independant foreign policy we should have one. In the end though, if the US does not like our foreign policy they don't have to......but are we prepared to accept the ramifications of being independant?

There was a huge outpouring of public outrage because we need passports to go to America...an independant foreign country. I just get the sense, sometimes, that we want a special relationship with America but we want them to remember we are independant. They sometimes don't work together.
 
That is all fine....and if we want a more independant foreign policy we should have one. In the end though, if the US does not like our foreign policy they don't have to......but are we prepared to accept the ramifications of being independant?

When there is a closed border we have a choice of being independent. With an open border we don't have a choice. We have to accept that US foreign policy is theirs to make and our foreign policy is ours to make and when they don't line up there is always a price. If we accepted that Canada was a part of the United States we would get the benefit of no border, free trade, and a vote in the US government. We would have the negative consequence of loosing health care as we know it and some of our charter rights.

There was a huge outpouring of public outrage because we need passports to go to America...an independent foreign country. I just get the sense, sometimes, that we want a special relationship with America but we want them to remember we are independent. They sometimes don't work together.

I accept that it is their country to do with as they please. I'm arguing that closing the border so Canadians are treated similar to Mexicans is better than the alternative just because of the way US policy works. It is less than ideal but the machinations of the US government are less than ideal as well. Even the US president seems to have little power so what say can we expect a Canadian voter to have?
 
Buffalo and Detroit! What destinations! Where shall I plan a trip to first?

Seriously, can we just by-pass those two rotting wrecks and head straight to Chicago and New York? Oh, pretty please.

They make good destinations for hockey fans. With HSR I can see Toronto fans who are sick of the stinkin' Leafs hop on a train and go to Detroit or Buffalo, watch a game, and then come back on the same day.
 
Whoah, I was just being a dick; I don't really want to go to Chicago or NY either.

Though, some of those clarifications were pretty interesting. Thanks.
 
The high-speed line would likely connect almost directly with Pearson and directly with Dorval. The Ottawa airport would also be relatively close either by transitway or with a rail connection. Jean-Lesage airport in Quebec is also very close to existing rail lines and could easily be served with HSR.

My point is, while US connections are definitely important, connections to their airports aren't necessarily as important. With much of the air traffic cleared up between Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto, and with improved access to these airports, it would then become possible for airlines to run more economical direct services to overseas destinations. This is especially true of Montreal-Ottawa who would share both of their airports. People living in Southwestern Ontario, or on the Niagara peninsula would also have greatly improved access to Pearson, making such flights. However, it would help if Air Canada weren't so bloody expensive. Depending on the time it takes to clear the US border on a high speed train, it may be more worthwhile for US bound passengers to just cross the border and use US airports for domestic trips, but I don't hold out much hope for the border becoming faster any time soon. My greatest fear is that international border crossings for anyone not in a motor vehicle will become more and more like airport security, negating any time benefit to actually using the train.

Some on here argue that it would be worth it to harmonize our trade at the price of our sovereignty. However, one only has to take a look at the recent economic collapse to see how disaterous it could be for Canada if US interests fully controlled our economy and our government lessened its scruity on financial institutions to become more like the US. In any US-Canada economic merger scenario, Canada would almost always become exploited.
 
That is an incredible investment Obama announced for High Speed Rail for different areas of the States. Glad that these investments are going to extend to Canada in the three places mentioned. I think only 2 out of the three are going to become reality though, the Montreal and Toronto extensions. Hope our own government makes a similar announcement soon so that our country can remain fairly competitive. Hard to believe that we are falling behind China on this front. Canada really needs to invest in this, not only to help the environment, but, it will help our economy as well.
 
Hard to believe that we are falling behind China on this front. Canada really needs to invest in this, not only to help the environment, but, it will help our economy as well.

How is it hard to believe if we havent even started the ball rolling.

In China over the next three years, the government will pour some $300 billion into its railways, expanding its network by 20,000 kilometers, including 13,000 kilometers of track designed for high-speed trains capable of traveling up to 350kph.
 
It's that it's hard to believe that we've done fuckal.

Oh, sorry. Write reports. Do studies. Pay consultants' fees. Get no results. Be behind China (WAAAAAAAAAAAAY behind).
This is Canada though, if the tax dollars aren't going to highways then it's "how could they spend that much on trains?!"
 
We are, and always will be behind China on this front. Canada will NEVER have anywhere near 13000km of HSR. We could connect every single major city in a nationwide network and still not top that. On the other hand, if we built even just the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line we would be ahead in terms of km per capita. 17.5km/M vs 10km/M That's a pointless measurement of course...but aren't numbers fun!
 
We are, and always will be behind China on this front. Canada will NEVER have anywhere near 13000km of HSR. We could connect every single major city in a nationwide network and still not top that. On the other hand, if we built even just the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line we would be ahead in terms of km per capita. 17.5km/M vs 10km/M That's a pointless measurement of course...but aren't numbers fun!

Semantics are a lot of fun too!

But I do agree. It's not a penis measuring contest.

Yeah, I said it.
 
If you want Canada to be like China in terms of HSR construction, be careful what you wish for.

Hong Kong recently approved funding to connect itself to the Chinese HSR network. The HSR proposal was poorly done, with plans calling for a 26km tunnel and one massive terminal which will cost $8.8 billion Canadian to Hong Kong taxpayers. The project, which will require demolition of an entire village and tunneling under an old neighbourhood threatening above-ground structures, was poorly planned with little public consultation. As I've mentioned in this thread previously, the viability of this project hinges on Canadian-style pre-clearance at the station in Hong Kong, yet pre-clearance violates Hong Kong's constitution and the project team has no answers as to how to make it work. The funding was passed through a legislature that is strongly pro-Beijing and pro-development, despite strong public opposition.

In the Hong Kong HSR controversy, the flaws around the planning and development of China's HSR network was revealed by a semi-democratic society. As I wrote on my blog, I would never wish to see that kind of poor level of planning here in Canada, for HSR or for any piece of infrastructure.
 

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