Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[MisterF]

But airport users do pay fees to build and maintain airport capacity. And the rents collected over the years have more than repaid for the original construction costs of the airports in the Corridor. Rail users will never ever re-pay the capital required to build an HSR line.

Yes they will, as has been detailed in this thread.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It's not as bad as you think. These days to go pretty much anywhere from Ottawa (save a few US, international and seasonal Caribbean destinations) you have to connect through Toronto or Montreal. It would not make too much of a difference. However, the few remaining flights could be consolidated at either Toronto or Montreal. The airlines would actually like it because it lets them use larger, more efficient aircraft. Though, I'll admit that service wise its a bit of a step backwards in time to when all trans-atlantic flights had to land at a port of entry. Maybe, Mirabel can come into play again. They can finally achieve their dream of consolidating air traffic in Ottawa and Montreal at Mirabel.

Really? I didn't know that. I guess that I haven't been to Ottawa International in a while.

In that case, then it could actually make a lot of sense. But only once travel times are sufficiently low (in the 300 km/h range.)

 

[urbanfan89]

Won't happen because of security issues. But with a terminal at Pearson, it would truly be useful for international travellers. Hell, you could probably shut down international (trans-atlantic) service in Montreal and Ottawa and consolidate international traffic at Pearson (or at least Ottawa and use Montreal).

Not true. It's reality in Scandinavia already:
http://www.denmark.dk/en/servicemenu/News/GeneralNews/ImprovedCheckinForSASCustomers.htm

And not just there. If you begin your journey from, say, Shenzhen and fly out of Hong Kong, you can check in your luggage at the ferry terminal and board the ferry to HKIA, where you can bypass Hong Kong immigration and proceed straight to the departure gates. It takes a lot of unneeded stress out of the journey.

 

[kEiThZ]

Really? I didn't know that. I guess that I haven't been to Ottawa International in a while.

In that case, then it could actually make a lot of sense. But only once travel times are sufficiently low (in the 300 km/h range.)

There's a lot of flights from Ottawa to the rest of Canada and a good share of US destinations. But Ottawa has rather poor links to the rest of the world. I can bet that most airlines including AC would love to be able to consolidate that traffic at other airports.

 

[kEiThZ]

Not true. It's reality in Scandinavia already:
http://www.denmark.dk/en/servicemenu/News/GeneralNews/ImprovedCheckinForSASCustomers.htm

And not just there. If you begin your journey from, say, Shenzhen and fly out of Hong Kong, you can check in your luggage at the ferry terminal and board the ferry to HKIA, where you can bypass Hong Kong immigration and proceed straight to the departure gates. It takes a lot of unneeded stress out of the journey.

They don't have to deal with US pre-clearance rules for many of their passengers. I can bet good money that won't happen here.

 

[urbanfan89]

They don't have to deal with US pre-clearance rules for many of their passengers. I can bet good money that won't happen here.

Check-in for US flights will probably not happen here barring an EU-style customs union, but that may not be a big problem as some US flights may no longer need to fly to YYZ. If there are direct trains to DTW, the family of four vacationing in California for a week may find it's cheaper to take the train to DTW and fly from there. The same conceivably can be true for Buffalo Airport, but not likely (but a mass relocation of cheap vacation flights to Hamilton is more likely than either, though).

Anyway, train station check-in for US flights will still be useful for those without luggage to stow, which will cater to business passengers who need to fly to, say, NYC or Chicago. If this integrated air/rail system take shape, the future for small regional airports dotted around Southern Ontario looks bleak.

 

[wyliepoon]

And not just there. If you begin your journey from, say, Shenzhen and fly out of Hong Kong, you can check in your luggage at the ferry terminal and board the ferry to HKIA, where you can bypass Hong Kong immigration and proceed straight to the departure gates. It takes a lot of unneeded stress out of the journey.

Should be noted that there are plans to replace the ferry service with direct rail/subway service between Hong Kong and Shenzhen airport. Hong Kong will serve international flights, while Shenzhen will serve most domestic flights within China. This is a similar relationship that unofficially exists between Pearson and Buffalo airport today.

 

[kEiThZ]

Check-in for US flights will probably not happen here barring an EU-style customs union, but that may not be a big problem as some US flights may no longer need to fly to YYZ. If there are direct trains to DTW, the family of four vacationing in California for a week may find it's cheaper to take the train to DTW and fly from there. The same conceivably can be true for Buffalo Airport, but not likely (but a mass relocation of cheap vacation flights to Hamilton is more likely than either, though).

It's not just US bound flights that are impacted by the rules for maintaining pre-clearance at these facilities. These rules also govern how baggage is handled. And I suspect some of our own rules are probably quite similar as well. Either way, train station check-in would not necessarily be essential to displacing or re-locating some air traffic.

Anyway, train station check-in for US flights will still be useful for those without luggage to stow, which will cater to business passengers who need to fly to, say, NYC or Chicago. If this integrated air/rail system take shape, the future for small regional airports dotted around Southern Ontario looks bleak.

Small airports generally cater to business or general aviation. Basically, only Kingston, London, Hamilton and Windsor have commercial air service which could be displaced by an HSR.

As for train check-in for those without luggage, it's not worth the infrastructure and IT. If you are travelling without luggage, it takes barely a minute to check-in at an automated counter. The real benefit of train station check-in comes from the fact that you don't have to lug around your baggage for the whole train ride. If you don't have baggage that's not a problem, and then it's not worthwhile to build the infrastructure and IT backbone.

Should be noted that there are plans to replace the ferry service with direct rail/subway service between Hong Kong and Shenzhen airport. Hong Kong will serve international flights, while Shenzhen will serve most domestic flights within China. This is a similar relationship that unofficially exists between Pearson and Buffalo airport today.

I don't think Hong Kong and Shenzen are quite analogous to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and Detroit/Windsor. Although, Hong Kong is a SAR, it's still part of China, the security concerns, immigration concerns, etc are not quite the same.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I don't think Hong Kong and Shenzen are quite analogous to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and Detroit/Windsor. Although, Hong Kong is a SAR, it's still part of China, the security concerns, immigration concerns, etc are not quite the same.

China wanting to keep Hong Kong capitalists out vs. the US wanting to keep Canadian terrorists out. I'm not sure which will have tighter security

But if HSR were to arise, those airports in Kingston, London, Hamilton and Windsor would see a massive decrease in activity. But when these places grow (I'm thinking especially for London) they won't need to expand their airports to accommodate travel that's outside HSR's service.

I wonder if HSR would include a service similar to Tokaido and Sanyo Shinkansen's Kodama trains (I'm just assuming it would have Hikari service.) Ontario's population density isn't anywhere near Japan's, so it might not make sense. But if it did, it could be the start of a totally new rail revolution.

 

[golodhendil]

I don't think Hong Kong and Shenzen are quite analogous to Buffalo/Niagara Falls and Detroit/Windsor. Although, Hong Kong is a SAR, it's still part of China, the security concerns, immigration concerns, etc are not quite the same.

Indeed the concerns are not exactly the same; they are probably even more severe in the HK/SZ case than here. Chinese citizens do not have real freedom of movement even within mainland China, and mainlanders trying to enter HK or Macau, and vice versa, are required to have special permits and visas, which in the mainlanders' cases have either limited daily quota or are available only for select cities. The border between HK and mainland is closed, completely fenced off and heavily patrolled, and boundary crossings are more rigorously controlled than even many US-Canadian border crossings. Illegal immigration and influx of drugs, firearms and criminals are still major concerns for HK border policy.

 

[wyliepoon]

China wanting to keep Hong Kong capitalists out vs. the US wanting to keep Canadian terrorists out. I'm not sure which will have tighter security

China actually welcomes Hong Kong capitalists, unless they have dissenting views about the communist government. To most Hong Kong people who have a pair of biometric smart identity cards (the HK Identity Card and China's Home Return Permit), crossing the HK-China border is as simple as going through two automated turnstiles, one for each card. Since HK residents spend/invest huge amounts of money in China, there's no reason for China to turn them away at the border.

However, as golodhendil points out, this kind of freedom enjoyed by HK residents don't apply to mainland Chinese.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ That's mostly what I meant. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be nearly enough cross-border travel between Canada and US to warrant such an advanced system. Not to mention the border security that the US has. I wonder if it'll loosen as the Bush era sinks further and further into the past. The only two places that I could see significant need for such a system is Vancouver (Vancouver-Seattle, especially when a High Speed Rail line is established,) and Windsor-Detroit.

 

[kEiThZ]

Indeed the concerns are not exactly the same; they are probably even more severe in the HK/SZ case than here.

That being said, a train connecting Shenzen and HK could probably have immigration and customs controls at the station since there aren't many stops along the way. Any Quebec-Windsor HSR going across would present a unique challenge...as the trains going across today experience. That's unlikely to change and would be a barrier to implementing train station check-in for travelers departing from a US airport, or for Americans checking-in in Buffalo for a departure from Pearson.

Anyway, if the proposed HSR was fast enough, nobody would mind having to spend time checking-in at Pearson.

 

[kEiThZ]

Unfortunately, I don't think there will be nearly enough cross-border travel between Canada and US to warrant such an advanced system. Not to mention the border security that the US has. I wonder if it'll loosen as the Bush era sinks further and further into the past. The only two places that I could see significant need for such a system is Vancouver (Vancouver-Seattle, especially when a High Speed Rail line is established,) and Windsor-Detroit.

US border security is only going to get tighter. The Obama administration has proposed an electronic fence and the use of UAVs for surveillance. It was the Bush administration that actually distinguished between the northern and southern borders. This administration thinks both borders should be treated the same way.

 

[EnviroTO]

US border security is only going to get tighter. The Obama administration has proposed an electronic fence and the use of UAVs for surveillance. It was the Bush administration that actually distinguished between the northern and southern borders. This administration thinks both borders should be treated the same way.

Every administration before this differentiated between the two. Napolitano being from Arizona and having limited experience with anything other that Mexico and Mexican immigrants seems to think that (a) treating Canada different than Mexico is unfair to Mexico, and (b) Canadian immigration policies are scary. She doesn't seem to live in the same reality non-Fox News viewers live in.