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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

"On the freeway the average speed is about 115-120 km/h so the train should be faster than that."

That's not the average speed. Many drivers don't even cruise at that speed. I don't know what the statistics are, but I'm guessing once you factor in traffic and weather, average speeds are no higher than 75 km/h on an average highway here.
 
You also have to consider that those distances are from station to station, not just from "city" to "city". London to Kitchener might only average 69 km/h, but a car would have to drive on city streets into downtown to make a valid comparison.
 
That's not the average speed. Many drivers don't even cruise at that speed. I don't know what the statistics are, but I'm guessing once you factor in traffic and weather, average speeds are no higher than 75 km/h on an average highway here.
On a rural 400-series highway? I've tried locking in my cruise-control at 105 km/hr for fun ... it's bloody scary. Everything goes past you - transport trucks and all. And it feels like you nearly get rear-ended. I'd say 115-120 km/hr is a pretty good average speed. There's still a lot of traffic moving at more than 120 km/hr. Normally I put my cruise-control at almpost 130 km/hr on a nice day - and there are times that I"m surprised at how much traffic is overtaking me!

Generally, with breaks, food, gas, etc. I find that for long-haul trips, using a 100 km/hr average tends to work pretty good for figuring out driving time. Of course for shorter trips, like Montreal-Toronto, you can get away with a bit faster if you want, because all you have to do is stop for gas and a bathroom - though I find with my new Civic, I can actually do it without filling the tank - so in theory you do it non-stop.
 
"On the freeway the average speed is about 115-120 km/h so the train should be faster than that."

That's not the average speed. Many drivers don't even cruise at that speed. I don't know what the statistics are, but I'm guessing once you factor in traffic and weather, average speeds are no higher than 75 km/h on an average highway here.

What? You are telling me the average freeway speeds are 25 km/h under the speed limit? I don't know what freeway you are taking intercity because my experience is that at 115km/h you are pretty much keeping pace with the traffic.
 
Kingston-Ottawa=96km/h

It would not surprise me at all if the Ottawa-Brockville leg of this segment was down into the 80 kph range, and the Brockville-Kingston leg going over 100 kph in order to get that average. Some of these segments are way too slow.

When I used to drive the Toronto-Ottawa trip, the drive time ranged from four to four and a half hours with a stop outside of Kingston. The train ride ranges from four and a half to five hours - but the train stops more often.
 
When figuring average speed, you have to take into account all the city driving at both ends, as well as any stops, slow-downs, etc. It's not just "average speed while crusing in perfect highway conditions". In my experience, the drive from Toronto to Montreal takes around 6 hours, often more. The distance between the two downtowns is 500km, so if we assume a 6-hour drive, that gives us an average speed of 83 km/h.
 
Ok, a frequent drive I make is about 125km door to door. On a very good day (no traffic), I can do it in about 95 minutes. That averages to about 78 km/h. That's under ideal conditions, not rush hour.

You all seem to be forgetting that taking a weighted average of traffic trips will give you a huge proportion being done in stop-and-go traffic, which will kill average speed. Anyone who claims that the door-to-door average speed of highway traffic (or even the average speed on highways) is 115 or higher needs to think about it more carefully, IMO.
 
I'm hearing from a friend that The Current on CBC Radio 1 is discussing / has discussed this issue this morning. They post an archive, so check it out.
 
For door to door trips by rail you also have to take into account getting to and from the train station. Any way you look at it high speed rail would be the fastest, cleanest, safest, most reliable, and most convenient way to travel. I'm going to write my MP and MPP to express my support and I think everyone else should too.
 
Sorry, flucked speed reading.

A 21.9 km high-speed train from Quebec Avenue, just north of High Park, to Windor Avenue, just north of the Neville Park loop? Wow! Must be king of the world to get that? :eek:

Kidding! :D
 
Bad news...

Governments should not be so fast to write off bullet train

High-speed train would cost more, but you could take money from road budget

HENRY AUBIN , The Gazette
Published: Saturday, January 19, 2008

When Ottawa, Quebec and Ontario last week announced a study to explore the feasibility of a swift new train between Quebec City and Windsor, Ont., federal Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon's press release omitted an important detail. It did not say what kind of fast train was under consideration.

There are two main kinds. Let's call one category the TGV-type (named after France's train à grande vitesse, although other countries have competitive models). It requires a special track for much of its run and can cruise at 300 kilometres or more per hour. The second kind of train is the more conventional high-speed model whose speed is roughly 200 km/h.

A spokesperson for Cannon said yesterday the study would only explore this second, slower kind. Too bad.

I know what you're thinking: "The TGV model would be terribly expensive." And it would be. A 1999 study by industry (which envisaged the project as a public-private partnership) estimated such a train would cost taxpayers $7.5 billion for infrastructure; the private sector would pay an additional $3.6 billion for rolling stock and other equipment. A 2003 study said the total cost of a simple high-speed model would be $3 billion.

Would the huge cost of the TGV be unaffordable? I'll come back to this issue of cost in a moment, but first let's consider the TGV's advantages.

According to the 1999 study, it would cut the travel time between Montreal and Toronto to two hours and 21 minutes. That's just over half the time of VIA Rail's fastest train today (four hours and 20 minutes). A conventional high-speed train would take three hours and 15 minutes.

If it is to be a financial success, a new train would have to attract businesspeople. For them, the main allure of air travel between Montreal and Toronto is that it permits them to have meetings in the other city and be home in time for dinner. The TGV would allow them to do that. The high-speed model would make this harder.

The need to curb greenhouse gases is, of course, one of the main reasons for either kind of train. The conventional high-speed train would run on diesel fuel. Transport 2000 estimates such a train would churn out about half as much greenhouse gases per traveller mile as most cars and one-third to one-quarter as much as a plane. But the TGV would do even better: It would run on relatively clean hydro-electricity for much (if not all) of its route.

Now that we've seen the clear superiority of the TGV, let's go back to the crucial question of whether it's affordable.

I'm an advocate of frugal government. But there's a staggeringly simple way for the federal and provincial governments to pay for really good train service - and, no, I don't mean by increasing the debt.

That way is to redirect much of the money they now spend on new highways. I stress the word "new." (I'm not talking taking money away from such essential work as repairing roads and fixing crumbling overpasses.) The Quebec government said last fall it would spend $5.2 billion on new highways in 2008-2012. Given that motor vehicles are Quebec's No. 1 source of greenhouse gases, it's nuts to encourage more use of cars.

The Charest government is now nibbling at the climate-change problem by tightening cars' fuel-economy standards, but if it were to shift its bucks from asphalt to tracks it could take a real bite out of Quebec's contributions to global warming.

Trains, not cars, also should be Ottawa's focus. In 2002-03, federal subsidies and grants to the rail system ($288 million) were greater than to the highway system ($235 million). There's been a reversal since then. By 2006-07, according to Transport Canada figures, help to rail had shrunk ($191 million) while highway aid had soared ($964 million). That's right, highways are getting five times as much support as rail.

The feds are going in precisely the wrong direction.

The mandate that the Harper, Charest and McGuinty governments have given to their new study is far too narrow. Let's not be too speedy in dismissing the TGV.

haubin@thegazette.canwest.com

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2008

****

If this is true it's incredibly shortsighted of the governments. We don't want a half-assed high speed line like Acela in the US. A cheaper, slower train on existing tracks would require bigger, heavier trains to meet North American crash standards, which would be murder on parts like brakes. Exactly the problems that Acela's been having. It also wouldn't be as successful, as the travel time from Toronto to Montreal would be more than 3 hours.
 
We must demand better from government, and we have to dream big. But, it's nice to hear that they are at least considering SOMETHING. Something is better than nothing (unless you count my opinion of Rogers Communications, but that's another story).
 
MTO should start tolling the 400 highways, but only so the highway maintenance becomes revenue neutral. This should free up vast sums for rail services. We should also push Ottawa to jointly set up a body with Queens Park, called Via Ontario, to provide local rail services within southern and central Ontario. Otherwise, rail service will continue to be a joke.
 
A spokesperson for Cannon said yesterday the study would only explore this second, slower kind.

Next time there is complaining about productivity, this sentiment should be noted.


In a country that was united by rail, we clearly seem to be suffering from a distinct lack of imagination on what to do to make it more useful.
 

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