Proposed renaming of Dundas Street

[Undead]

So we shouldn't fight fascism because it will always return?

Your Kathy Newman level of strawmanning merits no counterargument lol

 

[EnviroTO]

I think the point is that as we are always finding new ways to do things better, there will always be old ways that we will be trying to distance ourselves from. Humanity is improving and imperfect. If you are going to name anything after anyone, you either need to accept that you are commemorating someone who did something great, but is far from perfect, or be ready to tear it all down when the focus moves from their area of greatness, to their area of weakness.

 

[syn]

I think the point is that as we are always finding new ways to do things better, there will always be old ways that we will be trying to distance ourselves from. Humanity is improving and imperfect. If you are going to name anything after anyone, you either need to accept that you are commemorating someone who did something great, but is far from perfect, or be ready to tear it all down when the focus moves from their area of greatness, to their area of weakness.

You're right.

I believe we're coming to the realization it can be both these things. Like it or not, we're going to leave society to future generations that may come to different conclusions than we did. They have the right to make changes.

As for the renamings, I have no problem with it in this case. Dundas had virtually nothing to do with Toronto. I'm sure we could name it after a Canadian who made an actual impact on the city.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not really; once we start judging historical events and historical people by the (ever changing) standards of today there really is no end to it. FAR better to explain the names and their histories; that way we might, just might, avoid repeating the same mistakes again and again. Would we name something after Dundas today? Of course not, but the fact that we did this ca 200 years ago tells us something about our country to know why his name was memorialised (he was the friend of a colonial official) and why (apart from this) Henry Dundas' name is not something that we now think worth commemorating.

Maybe we should be renaming the Caesar salad? Didn't Julius Caesar once sold the entire population of a conquered region in Gaul, no fewer than 53,000 people, to slave dealers on the spot.

From link.

The popularity of this salad around the world is most likely due to a man that bears the salad's name, Caesar Cardini, NOT Julius Caesar as many people believe......or maybe it was his brother Alessandro (Alex)......? Caesar Cardini (1896-1956)

 

[kamira51]

Separately......a report to Executive also recommends renaming Dundas street, and othewise expunging the name Dundas, everywhere..........

SMH.

Upwards of 6M ;

enough to house 24 people or families permanently.

enough to put 60 people from low-income minority households through advanced post-secondary degrees with no tuition, and no debt.

****

This is just Dundas..........

I could care less about this on a certain level.

Dundas had no tangible connection to the City.

That said, I always find symbolism for its own sake, not supported by substance to be wasteful and hypocritical.

If we want to make a real difference in lives of currently disenfranchised people (a disproportionate number of whom are First Nations or Black)........there is a long list of worthwhile places to put the money before this.

Report here: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-168523.pdf

Not really; once we start judging historical events and historical people by the (ever changing) standards of today there really is no end to it. FAR better to explain the names and their histories; that way we might, just might, avoid repeating the same mistakes again and again. Would we name something after Dundas today? Of course not, but the fact that we did this ca 200 years ago tells us something about our country to know why his name was memorialised (he was the friend of a colonial official) and why (apart from this) Henry Dundas' name is not something that we now think worth commemorating.

I absolutely disagree with renaming Dundas street, it's removing history and the importance of that road and how it shaped this province.

That man did some good things and bad things, we should REMEMBER the pros and cons, not remove it from the history books because it "upsets" a group of people.

It's absolutely ridiculous the nonsense that's been happening recently.

 

[SubHuman]

Renaming a street falls off the list of things that need addressing.

As I've said here at least twice before, I have thought (since well before I had any idea who or what the street was named after) that Dundas Street through the western part of Toronto should be renamed because it's a mess that confuses people. It's an east-west street downtown, but then bends and changes direction several times, including becoming a straight north-south street at Roncesvalles, which would make sense for the name of that part of it (at least until it gets to about Annette or Keele, where it could be given another name). There are presently two different Bloor-Dundas intersections (the other in the Six Points area) that confuse people and even navigation systems. Radio traffic reports never specify which one they mean. I was on a bus returning from Fallsview on a night when the Gardiner was closed, and to get University and Dundas the driver exited at the 427 and then unfortunately (I assume just following the navigation system instructions) drove the rest of the way along Dundas, giving us an unwanted slowly meandering tour through the various neighbourhoods in the western part of the city
Now that the TTC Dundas West and Bloor GO stations are finally about to be connected in the next two or three years, it would be a good time to give them both the same new name, instead of them both having the names of other existing subway stations in different places. I suggest Roncesvalles could be a good name, to be done in conjunction with renaming that part of Dundas Street..

Things do get renamed when people learn or realize things that change their perspective from decades or centuries before. For example, Stalin Township (named after Joseph Stalin) here in Ontario had its name changed in the 1980s.

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I don't seem to recall hearing any complaints of "You're trying to erase history!" at the time. If anything, this kind of thing strikes me more as people acknowledging and learning history, instead of trying to continue to whitewash it.

 

[afransen]

Slippery slope arguments are lame.

Memory holing all of history is lame.

 

[zang]

That man did some good things and bad things, we should REMEMBER the pros and cons, not remove it from the history books because it "upsets" a group of people.

Memory holing all of history is lame.

Removing a name from a street or taking down a statue is not the same as wiping someone from the history books. It’s removing an honour when it’s discovered someone’s done something dishonourable. Dundas’ name is still going to be in history books, and if it’s too difficult to understand that, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Undead]

Shame they're coming to the same incorrect conclusions as some of our predecessors.

 

[kamira51]

Removing a name from a street or taking down a statue is not the same as wiping someone from the history books. It’s removing an honour when it’s discovered someone’s done something dishonourable. Dundas’ name is still going to be in history books, and if it’s too difficult to understand that, I don’t know what to tell you.

So what does changing the name accomplish?, does it somehow solve the problem?

 

[zang]

I don't seem to recall hearing any complaints of "You're trying to erase history!" at the time. If anything, this kind of thing strikes me more as people acknowledging and learning history, instead of trying to continue to whitewash it.

Leningrad (St. Petersburg) and Stalingrad (Volgograd) are shining examples of hindsight vs. preserving an honour given to a person for the sake of “history”.

 

[zang]

So what does changing the name accomplish?, does it somehow solve the problem?

It shows we won’t tolerate the continued glorification of terrible people? It respects and acknowledges generational harm?

 

[kamira51]

It shows we won’t tolerate the continued glorification of terrible people? It respects and acknowledges generational harm?

Then how about we remove the name of every canadian politician that "caused harm" so it will magically heal wounds.

 

[kamira51]

Leningrad (St. Petersburg) and Stalingrad (Volgograd) are shining examples of hindsight vs. preserving an honour given to a person for the sake of “history”.

One committed mass genocide that makes Dundas look like a saint.

 

[afransen]

Where does it end? George Washington owned slaves. I suppose the US should be renaming its capital and one of its states?

We can erase all mention of problematic people (most historical figures are problematic), or we can reflect on it.