News   Nov 04, 2024
 443     0 
News   Nov 04, 2024
 699     4 
News   Nov 04, 2024
 875     1 

Problematic Park Design - Why Some Parks Don't Work

The lack of seating is such a perennial problem in Toronto parks. We went to Sugar Beach on the weekend, and the toddler played in the splash pad for a while, then wanted to play in the sand. Obviously on a weekend afternoon all of the muskoka chairs were taken, which was fine, but there's lots of nice shady sand to play in at the back edge of the beach. But there's nowhere to sit there! You're in no mans land between the muskoka chairs scattered around the beach, and the benches in the middle of the walkway. Give us a bench at the edge of the sand area!
 
The lack of seating is such a perennial problem in Toronto parks. We went to Sugar Beach on the weekend, and the toddler played in the splash pad for a while, then wanted to play in the sand. Obviously on a weekend afternoon all of the muskoka chairs were taken, which was fine, but there's lots of nice shady sand to play in at the back edge of the beach. But there's nowhere to sit there! You're in no mans land between the muskoka chairs scattered around the beach, and the benches in the middle of the walkway. Give us a bench at the edge of the sand area!

At least Sugar Beach does have some alternatives overall; both in the benches that line the nearby promenade and in the giant rocks with the 'candy stripes'.

I do agree there could be more there, though the space is a tight squeeze relative to demand.

But in other parks it seems either absent or at best, at an after-thought.

Your situation (with the toddler) is yet another in which its important to recognize not everyone, at every time is comfortable sitting on the ground/sand/grass; and that while parks can
and should have a sense of style............they are not merely a passive art gallery, but something to be enjoyed in a sustained way.
 
Last edited:
At least Sugar Beach does have some alternatives overall; both in the benches that line the nearby promenade and in the giant rocks with the 'candy stripes'.

The thing that gets me at Sugar Beach is that the edge of the "beach" is raised to match the paving stones that form the promenade. At some places, near the lake, that is a comfortable height to sit, but at most places it's way too shallow to sit comfortably. It would be so easy to make the whole border of the beach a comfortable sitting height.
 
The thing that gets me at Sugar Beach is that the edge of the "beach" is raised to match the paving stones that form the promenade. At some places, near the lake, that is a comfortable height to sit, but at most places it's way too shallow to sit comfortably. It would be so easy to make the whole border of the beach a comfortable sitting height.

Reference for others, my photo from page 3 of this thread:

1626234264694.png


I don't know what the sand depth is here............digging down in close proximity to the trees is not something I would recommend..............but on the south side, there doesn't seem to be a reason you couldn't create more a seating space in the form of legs off the board walk.

I could see avoiding seating above the boardwalk grade here, as there would be an interesting in retaining the Lake view for those seated on the sand to the north of that boardwalk.

Though, edging the brick pavers with that might be an option.
 
That is exactly where I was trying to sit on the weekend! You can't lean on the tree because the angle doesn't work, and you can't sit on the wood because it's not high enough. But the toddler enjoyed the shady sand under the tree.
 
The lack of seating is such a perennial problem in Toronto parks.

One of the most frustrating aspects of Toronto park design is that nearly all of them suffer from the same problems, not all of which are expensive or difficult to fix either in the design stage or post-facto!

1. Bad, harsh, and/or in some cases downright unsafe lighting conditions;
2. Not enough seating;
3. Not enough (non-porto potty) washrooms;
4. Not enough food and drink options (you don't necessarily want them everywhere, of course, but right now they are nearly NOwhere);
5. Shitty maintenance practices: this one too often gets explained away by the Parks budget not being sufficient to cover adequate SOGR, which is a total red herring; for example, almost all parks I frequent on a regular basis have constant flooding and grass/pathway damage issues because PF&R employees drive their stupid f***ing F-250s all over the place, almost always out of a sense of pure laziness and ignorance.

Toronto parks, both current and future, would be vastly improved by fixing just those things, and it really shouldn't be that damn hard. Contrary to lazy or misguided opinion, there's plenty of money kicking around to make many of these fixes to existing parks, and others are just a matter of changing practice and/or briefs/design evaluation. There are good people in PF&R, but holy cow is that department ever horribly mismanaged. It, Urban Design, and Transportation need to be disassembled and built back up from the bottom up -- the City would be a lot more livable and enjoyable if that happened.
 
One of the most frustrating aspects of Toronto park design is that nearly all of them suffer from the same problems, not all of which are expensive or difficult to fix either in the design stage or post-facto!

1. Bad, harsh, and/or in some cases downright unsafe lighting conditions;

The City's standard fixture isn't great. It has some good ones, but it doesn't mandate those as the standard for reasons I can't quite grasp.


2. Not enough seating;

Just yes.

3. Not enough (non-porto potty) washrooms;

Yes, and, hours/seasons too short.

4. Not enough food and drink options (you don't necessarily want them everywhere, of course, but right now they are nearly NOwhere);

An issue here is how badly the City has messed up contracts for concessions in the past; think of all the controversy over the Beaches lease/Tubbs.
That's not an excuse.........
But there is a bigger re-think needed here.


5. Shitty maintenance practices: this one too often gets explained away by the Parks budget not being sufficient to cover adequate SOGR,

Its an in sufficient excuse, but a very real one. An awful lot of SOGR is funded out of S.37 and S.43 which are really meant to fund new/expanded parks. Notwithstanding that cash injection there is a shortage of money to fix some things. Now there are things that could certainly be designed better; and better operational practices with the money already allotted.

which is a total red herring; for example, almost all parks I frequent on a regular basis have constant flooding and grass/pathway damage issues because PF&R employees drive their stupid f***ing F-250s all over the place, almost always out of a sense of pure laziness and ignorance.

That is a very real issue. Of course, there are parks (lots of them) with nowhere intended for parking a Parks service vehicle, which is why the matter ends up being discretionary.

Most park paths outside of the valleys and MGT are not designed to allow a vehicle to drive on them, they are neither wide enough nor strong enough. Again, that's no excuse, it can and should be addressed.

Toronto parks, both current and future, would be vastly improved by fixing just those things, and it really shouldn't be that damn hard. Contrary to lazy or misguided opinion, there's plenty of money kicking around to make many of these fixes to existing parks,

This one I do have to disagree with. Parks operating budget per ha of parkland has not kept pace with inflation. Mowing crews are a small fraction of what they used to be, and many supervisors lack forepersons (the handy folks who use to do all the odd jobs from patching a pothole to fixing a bench).

Even the budget for picnic tables is absurdly scant. I had a discussion with a Parks Supervisor a couple of years back, and he was in charge of something like 30 parks, he was allowed only 10 picnic tables for his entire area.


There are good people in PF&R, but holy cow is that department ever horribly mismanaged. It, Urban Design, and Transportation need to be disassembled and built back up from the bottom up -- the City would be a lot more livable and enjoyable if that happened.

True!
 

Attachments

  • 1626272652305.png
    1626272652305.png
    2.5 KB · Views: 176
One of the most frustrating aspects of Toronto park design is that nearly all of them suffer from the same problems, not all of which are expensive or difficult to fix either in the design stage or post-facto!

1. Bad, harsh, and/or in some cases downright unsafe lighting conditions;
2. Not enough seating;
3. Not enough (non-porto potty) washrooms;
4. Not enough food and drink options (you don't necessarily want them everywhere, of course, but right now they are nearly NOwhere);
5. Shitty maintenance practices: this one too often gets explained away by the Parks budget not being sufficient to cover adequate SOGR, which is a total red herring; for example, almost all parks I frequent on a regular basis have constant flooding and grass/pathway damage issues because PF&R employees drive their stupid f***ing F-250s all over the place, almost always out of a sense of pure laziness and ignorance.

Toronto parks, both current and future, would be vastly improved by fixing just those things, and it really shouldn't be that damn hard. Contrary to lazy or misguided opinion, there's plenty of money kicking around to make many of these fixes to existing parks, and others are just a matter of changing practice and/or briefs/design evaluation. There are good people in PF&R, but holy cow is that department ever horribly mismanaged. It, Urban Design, and Transportation need to be disassembled and built back up from the bottom up -- the City would be a lot more livable and enjoyable if that happened.

As someone who regularly attends a wide variety of parks through necessity, I'm acutely aware of the perpetual frustration caused by all the things you listed. A lot of the problems in our parks really seem illogical to me, as if the people who design them don't use them or have no intuitive common sense as to which glaringly obvious features should be mandatory...
 
As someone who regularly attends a wide variety of parks through necessity, I'm acutely aware of the perpetual frustration caused by all the things you listed. A lot of the problems in our parks really seem illogical to me, as if the people who design them don't use them or have no intuitive common sense as to which glaringly obvious features should be mandatory...

This is exactly it -- these aren't trivial items; they hit at the core function of a piece of infrastructure that is an important component of urban livability. What's more, these problems don't exist in lots of other cities! Just copy their shit! Take a field trip to Bryant Park! Not hard!
 
As someone who regularly attends a wide variety of parks through necessity, I'm acutely aware of the perpetual frustration caused by all the things you listed. A lot of the problems in our parks really seem illogical to me, as if the people who design them don't use them or have no intuitive common sense as to which glaringly obvious features should be mandatory...

There are a few different types of issues at play.

1) Policy:

Here I mean directives that say 'Thou shalt' when designing a space, whether that's done in-house or by a third-party designer.

The policy bar is set low in many respects. Washrooms are not mandated in park design for a standard park, they are mandated at the regional/legacy park level, a few other described circumstances and generally where they are already offered.
That's a choice; part of it is money, washrooms have maintence costs and the City is loathe to boost the Parks operating budget to cover those, so Parks tries to avoid taking on new obligations.

There's generally no mandate around minimum levels of certain types of seats (ie. with back rest, or with table).

There's no mandate around BBQs (the fixed ones); which used to be common in Metro Parks, but generally the City has not replaced them as they have failed.

2) Organization:

Under Mayor Miller a choice was made to take most staff away from specific parks. Instead 'flying teams' handle mowing, litter removal, inspections etc .
This was wrong-headed. While not all Parks will well maintained previously; there was both greater accountability and a greater sense of ownership by staff when they were assigned to specific parks.
The model, with some exceptions, was previously more hub-and-spoke with larger parks having full-time staff assigned to them, and small parks being serviced either by a parks yard or by staff based out of the larger parks.
There are some parks that still maintain their own staff, but this is the exception, more than the rule.

A further issue is that in a desire to standardize (parks get 'x' litter clean-ups a week. There was initially little differentiation between high-use parks, or parks more susceptible to problems for w/e reason vs the 'standard'.
Some changes have since been made with some parks seeing extra service. But its still awkward.

3) Competence:

I don't mean this in a rude way. There are some staff who may deserve that, but most do not.
What I mean here is two-fold.

There are lots of staff who simply don't have the right training to do their jobs well.
Parks Capital Projects is a unit with lots of people in it who have no formal experience in any of Project Management, Landscape Architecture, or Architecture. (the latter important if you're overseeing the build of a Community Centre).

People are being asked to keep on top of things they literally don't understand. They understand on-budget and on-time, but they lack (in many cases) the requisite understanding of how to achieve that, or how to address contractor concerns if site conditions or as-built circumstances are not aligned with the drawings.

***

At the front-line level of delivery, the City has a high proportion of seasonal, casual staff with relatively high turnover. That means the institutional memory of how to do things is often poor.

Crews assigned to plant trees often don't know something like how fast a given species grows. The problem with not knowing that is if you put two plants close together and one grows much faster, it over-tops the small one, often killing it off.
Its something you need to know.

4) Understanding:

I put this one in to speak to a couple of different things.

a) There is a very well known Landscape architect who has a great critical reputation, and who is highly competent, and cares about her work; but whose designs are often profoundly disliked by the public in parks. She has a penchant for parks as an art gallery, and a tendency towards the formal English Garden style.

She simply has trouble 'getting' how the average person enjoys park space. She designs with a certain wealthy client in mind, thinking about relatively low-use backyards.

b) I gave examples earlier in the thread of trampled flower beds. There seems to be an inability by some to understand 'desire lines' and real-world behaviors. You can competently design a flower bed, and then have it trampled.
Technically you didn't do anything wrong; except that you didn't understand how people would behave with that particular feature, located in that particular spot.

5) Funding

This is the final piece, but it is important. Sometimes designs in their preliminary form are much better than what we end up getting. Developers aren't the only ones who value-engineer.
Parks often cuts back on small things that will make a park better, or the quality of material finishes in order to get a park done on budget.
Sometimes there's a hope to come back and finish things properly later; sometimes not; but the former often gets lost as staff move on to other projects.
 
Last edited:
Take a field trip to Bryant Park! Not hard!

Lots of NYC Parks have the same issues as Toronto, and worse.

That's one reason Bryant Park is operated by a non-profit Board, not the the NYC Parks department.
Likewise, Central Park is overseen by a Conservancy.

This is part of the challenge.

Because most parks are never going to get a conservancy or third-party sponsors/managers for better or worse.

Yorkville Park might get the BIA (if the City allowed that); Toronto Botanical Garden is working towards this type of model though somewhat painfully and slowly.

But the majority of the City's Parks will always be dependent on City staff, on their leadership, their ambition, their culture, their training and their funding.
If we mess those up, most spaces will suffer.
 
I think the readers will find more on HTO park design and purposes following the link below. It will clarify some things mentioned above.


I strongly agree with the author that some groups of people, such as children and seniors, suffer from a lack of attention. Whatever contemporary design would have been, some benches must have a back, or parks and streets must have seating places. But, as we see, the option for seating in this park is the grass made on purpose. The piece of art in the waterfront blog makes it clear. On the contrary, a strong shift in design to pursue a particular idea, subjection of a whole park area to an untested idea, often leads to a failure in that design's total comprehension or usability. The designers should be careful with experiments and always pay tribute and leave a place for traditional design features.

At the same time, I consider the hills is a good option as long as we have the beach as a kind of a getaway on the other side of the park. It might be controversial whether the hills should be there or not, but that is definitely a minor question comparing to missing traditional seating places at any corner of the park.
Multiple entrances or zero barriers to the park create engagement for pedestrians walking along MGT, which is not bad also.
 
Last edited:
I think the readers will find more on HTO park design and purposes following the link below. It will clarify some things mentioned above.


I strongly agree with the author that some groups of people, such as children and seniors, suffer from a lack of attention. Whatever contemporary design would have been, some benches must have a back, or parks and streets must have seating places. But, as we see, the option for seating in this park is the grass made on purpose. The piece of art in the waterfront blog makes it clear. On the contrary, a strong shift in design to pursue a particular idea, subjection of a whole park area to an untested idea, often leads to a failure in that design's total comprehension or usability. The designers should be careful with experiments and always pay tribute and leave a place for traditional design features.

At the same time, I consider the hills is a good option as long as we have the beach as a kind of a getaway on the other side of the park. It might be controversial whether the hills should be there or not, but that is definitely a minor question comparing to missing traditional seating places at any corner of the park.

I agree w/most of this, I don't think its inconsistent w/what I had to say.

Multiple entrances or zero barriers to the park create engagement for pedestrians walking along MGT, which is not bad also.

The sheer number of entrances I have a problem with.........more than 1 is fine, but 6 is only a little over 100M is silly.
 
I don't think its inconsistent w/what I had to say.
That’s true but park existence instead of industrial debris and scrap looks better in every way, I think. To add, every park reflects design ideas at the time. HTO park is designated to accommodate cultural events among others. That is why its paths look excessive. I would say that even from top their maze is a good balance with foliage, no more no less. The question is where those arts and small businesses who have to be a luring part of design to crowd the park with visitors?
 

Back
Top