TRONto
Active Member
Yes Oriole!
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Problematic Park Design - Why Some Parks Don't Work
- Thread starter Northern Light
- Start date
TRONto
Active Member
I'm downtown focused - The Lilian H Smith and Fort York libraries have children's programming which can be good to take the kids to. I'm not so sure about the best libraries to take the kids at any random time. I'd probably take them to the reference library so they could run around
Northern Light
Superstar
Time to sweep the cobwebs away on this thread.
I believe I still have the following existing requests to take a look at:
Dufferin Grove Park for @Towered
June Rowlands Park for @Johnny Au
Eglinton Park for @Johnny Au
Walter Saunders Memorial Park for @Johnny Au
Osler Playground for @kmac12
I will also take further requests; reviews resume late next month once we start to see leaves on the trees and flowers are planted.
I believe I still have the following existing requests to take a look at:
Dufferin Grove Park for @Towered
June Rowlands Park for @Johnny Au
Eglinton Park for @Johnny Au
Walter Saunders Memorial Park for @Johnny Au
Osler Playground for @kmac12
I will also take further requests; reviews resume late next month once we start to see leaves on the trees and flowers are planted.
DSC
Superstar
Member Bio
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Osler is up for a rehab:
| Commodity: | Construction Services, Construction Services | |||
| Description: | Osler Playground Park Improvements, Toronto Request for Tender for Osler Playground Park Improvements, Toronto, 123 Argyle St., M6J 1N7 http://discovery.ariba.com/rfx/ 16017945 | |||
| Issue date: | April 17, 2023 |
| Closing date: | May 10, 2023 at 12:00 Noon |
Johnny Au
Senior Member
You should take a look at Laughlin Park as well as it is a short walk south from Walter Saunders Memorial Park.
evandyk
Senior Member
I'm probably leaving the east end and I might be living near Dufferin Grove soon. Would like to see your comments! We'll miss the density of great parks when we move. Being close to St. James, Sackville, Corktown, Sugar Beach, Regent Park, etc. was amazing with a toddler.
Northern Light
Superstar
Been there before but will do a tour w/camera and discuss it here as soon as stuff starts to leaf out.......
smably
Senior Member
This is a bit of a deep cut, but while you're in the area doing Dufferin Grove, I'd like to request a review of Erwin Krickhahn Park. It's the closest park to me, but despite walking by it pretty regularly, I've never had any particular desire to spend any time there. In general, it doesn't seem to be a well-used park. Maybe it's the size? Maybe the location? Maybe it's just not very well designed? I have some thoughts, but as always, I'd be interested to hear your take.
Towered
Superstar
Fear not - I can say from experience that Dufferin Grove is fantastic for toddlers! Also, there are quite a few really cool smaller parks within walking distance in the nabe that fly under the radar.
Towered
Superstar
Wow, deep cut is right - I'd never even heard of this park before and I'm frequently in the area. I can see why though - it's tucked away on a fairly isolated street.
evandyk
Senior Member
I suspect he'll be almost 5 by the time construction is finished, so not much of a toddler anymore. He was born when Time and Space was just a flat patch of dirt.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
If you have time for the rest of the year, there are three parks near Glencairn station: Wenderly Park, Benner Park, and Viewmount Park (Chatercourt Park (next to Glen Park Public School) and Dell Park are also nearby)
Northern Light
Superstar
This is my review of June Rowlands Park for @Johnny Au.
Photos are mine, taken June 3rd, 2023, unless otherwise noted.
Lets start by looking at what the City says about this park:
Now, an aerial pic:
As one can see this is decent sized neighbourhood park, sited at Davisville and Mt. Pleasant's north/west corner and otherwise bounded by Millwood and Acacia.
So before we go on our tour, a refresher for everyone on what I'm looking for as I examine the park.
1) How does what I see line up with the City's description of what the park is supposed to be / does it appear to fill its intended purpose.
2) Is the park popular? There is no better test of how close a park is achieving success that if its well loved by the community.
3) What is the state of repair / maintenance of park facilities and landscape.
4) Finally are there any obvious questions about park design, shortcomings, missed opportunities or the like?
That said, lets gets started on our tour. I approached the park along Davisville from the west, and we'll take the tour in that order:
Right off the bat, the park looks decent, but there are a couple of design questions. Note that there is no park entrance at the corner, but that's where the park entrance signage can be found. Curiously, to me, the sign is positioned so that you can't read it from the opposite side of the road, nor if approaching from the west, what an odd spot to stick the sign then.....
A crosswalk serves to connect the neighbourhood to the south with this park and the bus stop for WB buses on Davisville. Seems like a logical spot for a park entrance doesn't it? You can see what looks like a path there too; but its not 'by design'.
Its a well worn 'desire' line, illustrating the obvious, that this is a place people want to enter the park from, and they are, but this must be a heap of mud after any significant rains.
That said, lets go find the 'official' entrance, its off Acacia (the side street at the west of the park).
I'll confess, I'm a bit underwhelmed. No signage, no seating, no landscaping to speak of, just an asphalt path, and one with a feature designed to block cars from entering? Is this a real issue here?
From this entrance, you can see the desire line path from Davisville clear as day, which I'll wager gets more use than this entrance:
Park fit and finish here is City standard-issue, mostly, with asphalt paths, and city-standard light fixtures and benches*
The * for the benches reflects that almost every generation of City bench is present in this park from the 1960s on; in addition to a couple of non-standard ones.
I think this bench (above) should probably be retired, its one of a few in a poor state of repair. City Standard Benches such as this one can also be found in the park:
(photo by me, from the adjacent Glebe/Manor Square Park):
Non-Standard benches can be found next to the Children's waterplay feature:
We need to talk about metal street/parks furniture in a place such as Toronto. Metal tends to carry temperature much more than wood, it can super-heat in the sun and get icy cold in the winter. I think there's a place for it, generally 'patio-type' tables and chairs, in partly sun/partly shade locations. But I think placing it in full sun is a very odd choice.
But let's continue with our tour.
Our first stop is the Sharon, Lois and Bram children's playground and music garden. This garden is named for and its design calls back to the children's musical entertainers of an earlier generation. They were we big (with little kids) when I was a little kid in the late 70s/early 80s.
As one can see in the above images, the playground is unusually large, with a diverse range of equipment that the 'fun police' likely would not approve of today. I do. Clearly the neighbourhood kids do as well, as the playground was doing good trade with multiple families on the first Saturday of June at about lunch time.
The playground also has an adjacent music garden where kids can make music, or, musical'ish sounds, LOL....
Here I found a better online pic showing what on offer:
Taken from: https://kidsinto.wordpress.com/2016/05/25/sharon-lois-bram-music-garden/
Its a small number of percussion based instruments, these were in use when I was in the park, kids enjoying playing w/them, the noise was not all that offensive, LOL
With that, we'll break here before we continue our tour in the next post.
Photos are mine, taken June 3rd, 2023, unless otherwise noted.
Lets start by looking at what the City says about this park:
Now, an aerial pic:
As one can see this is decent sized neighbourhood park, sited at Davisville and Mt. Pleasant's north/west corner and otherwise bounded by Millwood and Acacia.
So before we go on our tour, a refresher for everyone on what I'm looking for as I examine the park.
1) How does what I see line up with the City's description of what the park is supposed to be / does it appear to fill its intended purpose.
2) Is the park popular? There is no better test of how close a park is achieving success that if its well loved by the community.
3) What is the state of repair / maintenance of park facilities and landscape.
4) Finally are there any obvious questions about park design, shortcomings, missed opportunities or the like?
That said, lets gets started on our tour. I approached the park along Davisville from the west, and we'll take the tour in that order:
Right off the bat, the park looks decent, but there are a couple of design questions. Note that there is no park entrance at the corner, but that's where the park entrance signage can be found. Curiously, to me, the sign is positioned so that you can't read it from the opposite side of the road, nor if approaching from the west, what an odd spot to stick the sign then.....
A crosswalk serves to connect the neighbourhood to the south with this park and the bus stop for WB buses on Davisville. Seems like a logical spot for a park entrance doesn't it? You can see what looks like a path there too; but its not 'by design'.
Its a well worn 'desire' line, illustrating the obvious, that this is a place people want to enter the park from, and they are, but this must be a heap of mud after any significant rains.
That said, lets go find the 'official' entrance, its off Acacia (the side street at the west of the park).
I'll confess, I'm a bit underwhelmed. No signage, no seating, no landscaping to speak of, just an asphalt path, and one with a feature designed to block cars from entering? Is this a real issue here?
From this entrance, you can see the desire line path from Davisville clear as day, which I'll wager gets more use than this entrance:
Park fit and finish here is City standard-issue, mostly, with asphalt paths, and city-standard light fixtures and benches*
The * for the benches reflects that almost every generation of City bench is present in this park from the 1960s on; in addition to a couple of non-standard ones.
I think this bench (above) should probably be retired, its one of a few in a poor state of repair. City Standard Benches such as this one can also be found in the park:
(photo by me, from the adjacent Glebe/Manor Square Park):
Non-Standard benches can be found next to the Children's waterplay feature:
We need to talk about metal street/parks furniture in a place such as Toronto. Metal tends to carry temperature much more than wood, it can super-heat in the sun and get icy cold in the winter. I think there's a place for it, generally 'patio-type' tables and chairs, in partly sun/partly shade locations. But I think placing it in full sun is a very odd choice.
But let's continue with our tour.
Our first stop is the Sharon, Lois and Bram children's playground and music garden. This garden is named for and its design calls back to the children's musical entertainers of an earlier generation. They were we big (with little kids) when I was a little kid in the late 70s/early 80s.
As one can see in the above images, the playground is unusually large, with a diverse range of equipment that the 'fun police' likely would not approve of today. I do. Clearly the neighbourhood kids do as well, as the playground was doing good trade with multiple families on the first Saturday of June at about lunch time.
The playground also has an adjacent music garden where kids can make music, or, musical'ish sounds, LOL....
Here I found a better online pic showing what on offer:
Taken from: https://kidsinto.wordpress.com/2016/05/25/sharon-lois-bram-music-garden/
Its a small number of percussion based instruments, these were in use when I was in the park, kids enjoying playing w/them, the noise was not all that offensive, LOL
With that, we'll break here before we continue our tour in the next post.
Northern Light
Superstar
Picking up where we left off, we'll take a look at the children's water play area:
Its a solid facility, motion activated, I think, either that or push button. This splash pad design only runs when kids want it to. It was actually quite busy w/2 families making use of it when I toured, I waited for an opening so as not to infringe on privacy.
***
To the north, there are some picnic tables, and then this:
The idea, the signage indicates, is a Butterly Garden. I find this one really odd. I've never seen a design for one based on top of a concrete pad. I wonder if this had been done to be something else and this was a change of plan....hmm?
Regardless, I'm fine with the idea, but evidence suggests it is not being actively maintained at this point.
Several of the planters look like this:
There was one really nice planter:
The white flowers at the front are the native Canada Anemone; and the short pink ones at the back are also native, Wild Geranium. The purple ones appear to be a non-native, European Columbine. I don't know why you wouldn't finish the thought by using the native one instead. Though they are pretty.
***
Moving north east, we see the park path, the only park path, winds its way out to Millwood, mid-block:
Its asphalt, its in ok'ish shape, odd that the path has no seats beside it, but the only thing that I want to nitpick is the entrance itself...
My usual complaints, no signage, no seats, no entry landscpaing. That said, it functions, and at least you can see into the park and make out the direction of the playground. But I still find it really odd they place an entrance mid-block while failing to have entrances near the corners or other spots where point of entry is, and was more likely.
***
At the north-eastern portion of the park we find a very large tennis court complex with six courts.
The courts themselves were in good condition and all were in use as I passed by, can't ask for much better, except maybe fixing the rusty fencing....but I'm being fussy now....
***
South of the tennis courts is a baseball diamond; this is listed as a class A facility (meaning pretty top notch), the City's only higher level of rating is 'premier' which would be a stadium in the case of baseball.
The diamond was in-use, the facility (turf, diamond, lights) all seemed in good condition, but the fence is beginning to rust.
Bonus points for the City Parks staffer who thought to put a drinking fountain next to where to where people are playing sports; - 2 points for the fact there is no pathway to it and it would not be considered accessible for anyone with a mobility aid for that reason (who might be watching their grand kid play, for instance)
***
Between the diamond and the children's play facilities is a open space and picnic area respectively, with a washroom complex anchoring the south-central portion of the park:
The above has a lot of exposed soil, partly a function of heavy shade and not completely avoidable, though a clear pathway would reduce trampling, and planting some shade-friendly native plants in pockets might be preferable to sun-loving grass.
***
The washrooms can be seen here at the south end of the open space, there has been extensive damage here to the turf. I'm not sure why. I examined aerial photos from the last several years and see the condition getting steadily worse.
Perhaps @Johnny Au or another local could contribute insight. Suffice to say, I think the damage should be repaired or the space set up for an alternative use.
****
The Washrooms were broadly in good condition and showed some quality of design. However, the sinks appear to be original and the lighting is on its last legs, despite fresh paint, the washrooms would benefit from a refurb.
Adjacent to, and south-east from the washroom entrance, we another 'desire line' point of entry to the park. A formal pathway from this area into the park does not currently exist, one should be introduced.
***
That wraps our tour of the park, so I'll offer an overall commentary and my thoughts on needed investments.
The park is very popular and that speaks well of it, the playground and music garden and excellent facilities though they are aging and will need some maintenance sooner than later.
The Butterfly garden should probably be re-thought, it seemed poorly maintained over all, and frankly a tad peculiar. I think it might make sense to put it in-ground, in full sun, near the washroom with 100% native plants that can largely self-maintain, if the amenity were retained.
The sports facilities are mostly in good condition, but their fencing is aging and requires replacement, the washroom building like wise needs new lighting and plumbing fixtures and if not currently winterized, it might make sense to do that at the same time.
Comprehensive replacement of park benches with a uniform style would be nice, some turf maintenance, total replacement of pathways and lighting is not required at this time, based on their condition, but there is certainly room for more attractive materials and fixtures.
Finally, the pathway system clearly needs to be added to/improved in at least three locations to address desire lines and to make one drinking fountain accessible.
In the context of an under-invested in park system in need of lots of work, this park can't be top-of-the-list, but in the context of a properly funded department, there is some work in need of doing.
Edit to add:
Back-of-the-envelope costing for investments:
Range:
Washroom refurb $100,000-$500,000 (depending on whether one winterizes)
Pathways $150,000 - $2,000,000 (basic add-ons vs total reconstruction with better material)
Turf Maintenance $15,000-$30,000
Sports facilities new fencing. $25,000-$75,000 (depends on whether post replacement is required)
Relocate Butterfly Garden - $20,000
Minor Landscaping enhancements/new signage - $30,000
Total $340,000 - ~ $2,700,000
Its a solid facility, motion activated, I think, either that or push button. This splash pad design only runs when kids want it to. It was actually quite busy w/2 families making use of it when I toured, I waited for an opening so as not to infringe on privacy.
***
To the north, there are some picnic tables, and then this:
The idea, the signage indicates, is a Butterly Garden. I find this one really odd. I've never seen a design for one based on top of a concrete pad. I wonder if this had been done to be something else and this was a change of plan....hmm?
Regardless, I'm fine with the idea, but evidence suggests it is not being actively maintained at this point.
Several of the planters look like this:
There was one really nice planter:
The white flowers at the front are the native Canada Anemone; and the short pink ones at the back are also native, Wild Geranium. The purple ones appear to be a non-native, European Columbine. I don't know why you wouldn't finish the thought by using the native one instead. Though they are pretty.
***
Moving north east, we see the park path, the only park path, winds its way out to Millwood, mid-block:
Its asphalt, its in ok'ish shape, odd that the path has no seats beside it, but the only thing that I want to nitpick is the entrance itself...
My usual complaints, no signage, no seats, no entry landscpaing. That said, it functions, and at least you can see into the park and make out the direction of the playground. But I still find it really odd they place an entrance mid-block while failing to have entrances near the corners or other spots where point of entry is, and was more likely.
***
At the north-eastern portion of the park we find a very large tennis court complex with six courts.
The courts themselves were in good condition and all were in use as I passed by, can't ask for much better, except maybe fixing the rusty fencing....but I'm being fussy now....
***
South of the tennis courts is a baseball diamond; this is listed as a class A facility (meaning pretty top notch), the City's only higher level of rating is 'premier' which would be a stadium in the case of baseball.
The diamond was in-use, the facility (turf, diamond, lights) all seemed in good condition, but the fence is beginning to rust.
Bonus points for the City Parks staffer who thought to put a drinking fountain next to where to where people are playing sports; - 2 points for the fact there is no pathway to it and it would not be considered accessible for anyone with a mobility aid for that reason (who might be watching their grand kid play, for instance)
***
Between the diamond and the children's play facilities is a open space and picnic area respectively, with a washroom complex anchoring the south-central portion of the park:
The above has a lot of exposed soil, partly a function of heavy shade and not completely avoidable, though a clear pathway would reduce trampling, and planting some shade-friendly native plants in pockets might be preferable to sun-loving grass.
***
The washrooms can be seen here at the south end of the open space, there has been extensive damage here to the turf. I'm not sure why. I examined aerial photos from the last several years and see the condition getting steadily worse.
Perhaps @Johnny Au or another local could contribute insight. Suffice to say, I think the damage should be repaired or the space set up for an alternative use.
****
The Washrooms were broadly in good condition and showed some quality of design. However, the sinks appear to be original and the lighting is on its last legs, despite fresh paint, the washrooms would benefit from a refurb.
Adjacent to, and south-east from the washroom entrance, we another 'desire line' point of entry to the park. A formal pathway from this area into the park does not currently exist, one should be introduced.
***
That wraps our tour of the park, so I'll offer an overall commentary and my thoughts on needed investments.
The park is very popular and that speaks well of it, the playground and music garden and excellent facilities though they are aging and will need some maintenance sooner than later.
The Butterfly garden should probably be re-thought, it seemed poorly maintained over all, and frankly a tad peculiar. I think it might make sense to put it in-ground, in full sun, near the washroom with 100% native plants that can largely self-maintain, if the amenity were retained.
The sports facilities are mostly in good condition, but their fencing is aging and requires replacement, the washroom building like wise needs new lighting and plumbing fixtures and if not currently winterized, it might make sense to do that at the same time.
Comprehensive replacement of park benches with a uniform style would be nice, some turf maintenance, total replacement of pathways and lighting is not required at this time, based on their condition, but there is certainly room for more attractive materials and fixtures.
Finally, the pathway system clearly needs to be added to/improved in at least three locations to address desire lines and to make one drinking fountain accessible.
In the context of an under-invested in park system in need of lots of work, this park can't be top-of-the-list, but in the context of a properly funded department, there is some work in need of doing.
Edit to add:
Back-of-the-envelope costing for investments:
Range:
Washroom refurb $100,000-$500,000 (depending on whether one winterizes)
Pathways $150,000 - $2,000,000 (basic add-ons vs total reconstruction with better material)
Turf Maintenance $15,000-$30,000
Sports facilities new fencing. $25,000-$75,000 (depends on whether post replacement is required)
Relocate Butterfly Garden - $20,000
Minor Landscaping enhancements/new signage - $30,000
Total $340,000 - ~ $2,700,000
Last edited:
Johnny Au
Senior Member
@Northern Light
Regarding the exposed dirt throughout June Rowlands Park, it is very popular with picnickers and hosting large-scale parties, as well as people playing soccer as there are no designated publicly accessible soccer fields in the area.
The Geneva Centre for Autism (based on Merton Street a few blocks to the south) hosts an annual picnic at the park with many inflatable castles, popcorn machines, fire trucks, and such.
All those large picnics and large-scale parties (and impromptu soccer playing) put a huge toll on the grass in the park.
Regarding the exposed dirt throughout June Rowlands Park, it is very popular with picnickers and hosting large-scale parties, as well as people playing soccer as there are no designated publicly accessible soccer fields in the area.
The Geneva Centre for Autism (based on Merton Street a few blocks to the south) hosts an annual picnic at the park with many inflatable castles, popcorn machines, fire trucks, and such.
All those large picnics and large-scale parties (and impromptu soccer playing) put a huge toll on the grass in the park.