Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[lenaitch]

Sure.

I didn't know "coutrycentric" was a word.

One problem with disrupting regional/county governance in growth or sprawl areas in favour of stronger lower tier or standalone municipalities is it has the potential to disrupt wider range planning of zoning, infrastructure, etc. It likely would have been much harder to develop and fund the York-Durham's 'Big Pipe' sanitary trunk if it had to involve multiple smaller fiefdoms. One concern is the province may see this are its role.

Perhaps eliminating the senior tier level in more stable areas such as Renfrew and Lennox & Addington or Perth might be less disruptive.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The County of York ceased to exist in 1971, with the formation of the Region of York.

 

[Towered]

Perhaps this decision should lead to a larger conversation about governance reform across Ontario.

 

[adma]

The County of York ceased to exist in 1971, with the formation of the Region of York.

Well, basically, the regions *all* served as counties kicked "one step upward"--the more drastic changes were with the municipalities contained within. The biggest changes from the old order were Niagara (an amalgamation of Welland & Lincoln Counties), Durham (most of the former Ontario County combined with part of Durham County, the rest of which was parcelled off to Victoria/Peterborough/Northumberland), Sudbury (the big Nickel Belt conurbation carved out as a standalone within Sudbury District), and Haldimand-Norfolk (formerly the namesake counties).

 

[mistersg1]

I don’t know what to say about all of this. This whole thing is incredibly stupid, and I’m not sure exactly why the Crombie is so happy. Just her arrogance alone on the matter makes me want to avoid buying anything in Mississauga right now.

Speaking of which, I’d bet the average person, that is people unlike us who are into this kind of thing, can even give you a distinct answer on where the boundary between Brampton and Mississauga lies, I hear a lot of claims but they never get the boundary right.


I think the emergence of region wide transit systems are a great positive of the whole Regional Municipality concept, could you imagine trying to break up YRT nowadays? Considering that the routes flow more well throughout the region and not forced to terminate at imaginary city boundary lines? The fact that one could take one bus from Finch Station and reach Hwy 9 is a very good set up in my opinion.

Similarly, I imagined one day one could take a single bus on Dixie Road and be able to reach Lakeshore, but I guess that will never happen now.


One thing I never understood, in the pre Peel Region era, were some of the communities in Toronto township and Chinguacousy township actually considered municipalities, like Brampton, Streetsville, or Port Credit? I always understood that Mississauga was a “megacity” to a certain extent in itself when it was formed.

 

[adma]

One thing I never understood, in the pre Peel Region era, were some of the communities in Toronto township and Chinguacousy township actually considered municipalities, like Brampton, Streetsville, or Port Credit? I always understood that Mississauga was a “megacity” to a certain extent in itself when it was formed.

That was indeed the pre-regional "order of the land"--Brampton, Streetsville, and Port Credit were standalone municipalities. Likewise Bolton and Caledon East within present-day Caledon. Which is comparable to Weston, Mimico, Leaside, etc within Metro Toronto until 1966. And Brampton was pretty big, and the county seat besides; so there would have been no surprise as to why it was a separate municipality.

That's how *all* Ontario counties were set up--they were parcelled into townships, within which certain cities, towns, and villages were incorporated over time (as well as a semi-independent entity known as a "police village"--within present-day Mississauga, Malton carried that status). And there was a distinct hierarchy where the townships were treated as lesser and quasi-invisible entities, seldom signed except with reference to concession roads--so you saw on the provincial map, Brampton and Port Credit and Streetsville and Malton depicted according to their population size at the moment (and a population given in the index), and a whole lot of hamlets like Cooksville and Clarkson depicted as dots without population size, but no indication of Toronto Twp or Chinguacousy.

What regionalization did was streamline and strengthen the setup so that, over time, town and township melded into one, so to speak--it created an archipelago of mega-municipalities. And the "mega-municipality" impulse ultimately migrated away from the regions, so that right now it's hard to find *anyplace" in Ontario which still reflects the old order...

 

[lenaitch]

Durham (most of the former Ontario County combined with part of Durham County, the rest of which was parcelled off to Victoria/Peterborough/Northumberland)

Along with Simcoe County. Rama and Mara townships in the former Ontario County were carved off and amalgamated into Ramara Township.

I don’t know what to say about all of this. This whole thing is incredibly stupid, and I’m not sure exactly why the Crombie is so happy. Just her arrogance alone on the matter makes me want to avoid buying anything in Mississauga right now.

Speaking of which, I’d bet the average person, that is people unlike us who are into this kind of thing, can even give you a distinct answer on where the boundary between Brampton and Mississauga lies, I hear a lot of claims but they never get the boundary right.


I think the emergence of region wide transit systems are a great positive of the whole Regional Municipality concept, could you imagine trying to break up YRT nowadays? Considering that the routes flow more well throughout the region and not forced to terminate at imaginary city boundary lines? The fact that one could take one bus from Finch Station and reach Hwy 9 is a very good set up in my opinion.

Similarly, I imagined one day one could take a single bus on Dixie Road and be able to reach Lakeshore, but I guess that will never happen now.


One thing I never understood, in the pre Peel Region era, were some of the communities in Toronto township and Chinguacousy township actually considered municipalities, like Brampton, Streetsville, or Port Credit? I always understood that Mississauga was a “megacity” to a certain extent in itself when it was formed.

It is possible that the Ontario government, if they think long term at all, envision cross or trans-border services to be a role for them. Quite frankly, I doubt they have considered any of the implications.

In terms of Peel County, it was continually evolving, but I do know that Port Credit and Ching, and probably others, were distinct municipalities. I know people who were members of those two respective police departments.

Edit: similarly, communities such as Pefferlaw Uxbrdige (town and township) and Markham (town and township) existed as distinct municipalities.

 

[adma]

Along with Simcoe County. Rama and Mara townships in the former Ontario County were carved off and amalgamated into Ramara Township.


It is possible that the Ontario government, if they think long term at all, envision cross or trans-border services to be a role for them. Quite frankly, I doubt they have considered any of the implications.

In terms of Peel County, it was continually evolving, but I do know that Port Credit and Ching, and probably others, were distinct municipalities. I know people who were members of those two respective police departments.

Edit: similarly, communities such as Pefferlaw Uxbrdige (town and township) and Markham (town and township) existed as distinct municipalities.

Re Ramara: which is why I referred to the former Durham County as being "parcelled off"--though it lent its name to the new region because "Ontario" was awkward. (Ramara was the only ceded part of Ontario County.)

As far as Peel goes, the pre-1974 municipalities are listed here

Peel County, Ontario - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chinguacousy was a township right to the end, if that constitutes any kind of "distinct municipality"--but much like Metro's townships before they became boroughs, or Nepean & Gloucester in the 1970s, it was quickly transgressing the loosely-defined bounds of what a "township" hitherto had been, and that's thanks to the massive growth of Bramalea, which was sort of to Ching what Sherwood Park is to Strathcona County outside Edmonton.

Pefferlaw was never a village--however, within present-day Georgina, Sutton was.

And let's not be mistaken: townships *were* municipalities (except when, as through Northern Ontario's districts, they were unincorporated)--they were just commonly regarded as "lower class" than cities/towns/villages.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Compare with the "City of London", population 8,583, located in Greater London. All 2.90 Km2 of it.

 

[adma]

The most perverse case was that of Pickering Township and Pickering Village (and keep in mind that for all their "lesser" status, townships were understood to have "birthed" cities/towns/villages, and were already prone to geographic cannibalization by the same)--the former came first, of course, and the latter was designated as a police village in 1900 and an independent village in 1953, the latter at the same time as the nearby wartime community of Ajax. Then when Durham Region was formed, most of Pickering Twp became the Town of Pickering, while Ajax (hitherto not extending much N of the 401) annexed a good deal of the SE portion of the township--including Pickering Village!

 

[mistersg1]

So basically, if I understand this, Brampton, (and I mean the boundaries on that map) Port Credit, and Streetsville were separated municipalities from their respective townships.

In Mississauga, I presume that Malton and Clarkson had significant weight in their days as “hamlets”, as they still exist in a form today, along with Port Credit and Streetsville, they form the basis of Mississauga.

Brampton was quite different, as Brampton was the only real place with any significant “weight” in Chinguacousy Township. That was not of course until Bramalea came around.

For those that don’t know, Bramalea is a fancy portmanteau, and it especially makes sense if you follow the path of the CN Railway. Bramalea, BRAM from Brampton, MAL, from Malton, and LEA is a word for a meadow.

Bramalea is basically a place created that was halfway between already established Brampton and Malton. (when looking at it from the CN line) Of course, this development was located within Chinguacousy. The early success of the plan led to the construction of a new Chinguacousy Town Hall which is today known as the Bramalea Civic Centre (Im not actually 100% certain of the Civic Centre serving as a Town Hall for Chinguacousy) Which just a few years later didn’t matter when the new City of Brampton was formed.

I’ve lived in Brampton my whole life and never heard of the former hamlets of Nortonville or Woodhill, at Queen/Dixie, and Queen/Airport respectively. Perhaps Nortonville lead its way to the currently named Norton Place Park nearby? I do remember at Queen/Airport when all that stood there was the Esso, I can’t remember any mention to Woodhill but it was a long time ago.

 

[W. K. Lis]

So basically, if I understand this, Brampton, (and I mean the boundaries on that map) Port Credit, and Streetsville were separated municipalities from their respective townships.

In Mississauga, I presume that Malton and Clarkson had significant weight in their days as “hamlets”, as they still exist in a form today, along with Port Credit and Streetsville, they form the basis of Mississauga.

Brampton was quite different, as Brampton was the only real place with any significant “weight” in Chinguacousy Township. That was not of course until Bramalea came around.

For those that don’t know, Bramalea is a fancy portmanteau, and it especially makes sense if you follow the path of the CN Railway. Bramalea, BRAM from Brampton, MAL, from Malton, and LEA is a word for a meadow.

Bramalea is basically a place created that was halfway between already established Brampton and Malton. (when looking at it from the CN line) Of course, this development was located within Chinguacousy. The early success of the plan led to the construction of a new Chinguacousy Town Hall which is today known as the Bramalea Civic Centre (Im not actually 100% certain of the Civic Centre serving as a Town Hall for Chinguacousy) Which just a few years later didn’t matter when the new City of Brampton was formed.

I’ve lived in Brampton my whole life and never heard of the former hamlets of Nortonville or Woodhill, at Queen/Dixie, and Queen/Airport respectively. Perhaps Nortonville lead its way to the currently named Norton Place Park nearby? I do remember at Queen/Airport when all that stood there was the Esso, I can’t remember any mention to Woodhill but it was a long time ago.

Bramalea was a created following the zoning by-laws of the time, the 1950's and 1960's. Single-use, low-density, sprawl. Old Brampton was more a slow growth of a 15-minute walkable neighbourhood. Unfortunately, Bramalea won out, which is also why the whole of Brampton has the highest auto insurance rates, because of their reliance on the car.

The following happened on Mountainash Rd and Countryside Dr in Brampton, where the posted speed limit on Countryside Dr. is 70 km/h, but on a stroad designed for 85% of the users will likely be travelling at over 80 km/h (or more in this case). Designed for the "safety" of speeders, not pedestrians (lucky no pedestrians involved). Guess why the auto insurance rates in Brampton are the highest in Ontario?

 

[adma]

So basically, if I understand this, Brampton, (and I mean the boundaries on that map) Port Credit, and Streetsville were separated municipalities from their respective townships.

In Mississauga, I presume that Malton and Clarkson had significant weight in their days as “hamlets”, as they still exist in a form today, along with Port Credit and Streetsville, they form the basis of Mississauga.

Brampton was quite different, as Brampton was the only real place with any significant “weight” in Chinguacousy Township. That was not of course until Bramalea came around.

For those that don’t know, Bramalea is a fancy portmanteau, and it especially makes sense if you follow the path of the CN Railway. Bramalea, BRAM from Brampton, MAL, from Malton, and LEA is a word for a meadow.

Bramalea is basically a place created that was halfway between already established Brampton and Malton. (when looking at it from the CN line) Of course, this development was located within Chinguacousy. The early success of the plan led to the construction of a new Chinguacousy Town Hall which is today known as the Bramalea Civic Centre (Im not actually 100% certain of the Civic Centre serving as a Town Hall for Chinguacousy) Which just a few years later didn’t matter when the new City of Brampton was formed.

I’ve lived in Brampton my whole life and never heard of the former hamlets of Nortonville or Woodhill, at Queen/Dixie, and Queen/Airport respectively. Perhaps Nortonville lead its way to the currently named Norton Place Park nearby? I do remember at Queen/Airport when all that stood there was the Esso, I can’t remember any mention to Woodhill but it was a long time ago.

Well, yes. Because that was the nature of the traditional city/town/village in Ontario: they were governmentally separate entities from townships. And that was the pre-region/pre-Mike Harris nature of the political map of Ontario: counties divided into townships, and amidst that matrix of townships you'd find this-and-that funny blob that was a city, a town, or a village.

Sort of like this, when it came to the immediate Toronto environs in 1959

https://neptis.org/sites/default/files/styles/900w/public/historical_commentary/4_1959_metro_planning_area.jpg?itok=lxE06BKl

Malton was a somewhat different case: a semi-autonomous "police village"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_village

It's true that a lot of Chinguacousy oxygen was sucked up by Brampton--but it was also geographically bigger, extending N into present-day Caledon and including places like Cheltenham. Even today within Brampton, the principal extant hamlets are the likes of Huttonville & Churchville & Snelgrove.

But one big difference w/Chinguacousy compared to Toronto Twp is that from the getgo, it was more "agricultural heartland" in nature--outside of Brampton, its settlement largely took the form of sleepy farms and four-corners--and moreover, until the 401 was built in the late 50s it was too remote for the commuter belt. Or at most, it was to Toronto Twp then what present-day Caledon is to Brampton/Mississauga.

A big reason why places like Clarkson or Cooksville or Erindale still hold a certain "weight" is that already, long before it became Mississauga, Toronto Twp was making its mark as a commuter 'burb and those places served as "settlement anchors" (and even the "agricultural" economy was more market-garden based, which was more commuter-amenable in its way). Whereas Bramalea's development was of the sort that superseded all need for preexisting "settlement anchors".

 

[mistersg1]

Bramalea was a created following the zoning by-laws of the time, the 1950's and 1960's. Single-use, low-density, sprawl. Old Brampton was more a slow growth of a 15-minute walkable neighbourhood. Unfortunately, Bramalea won out, which is also why the whole of Brampton has the highest auto insurance rates, because of their reliance on the car.

The following happened on Mountainash Rd and Countryside Dr in Brampton, where the posted speed limit on Countryside Dr. is 70 km/h, but on a stroad designed for 85% of the users will likely be travelling at over 80 km/h (or more in this case). Designed for the "safety" of speeders, not pedestrians (lucky no pedestrians involved). Guess why the auto insurance rates in Brampton are the highest in Ontario?

Ok, I see we have to bring the unrelated personal hatred of the automobile into this.

First, since you’re quoting Not Just Bikes, Countryside more follows his definition of a road than a “stroad” which I’ve only ever heard him use.

The only businesses really on countryside are those at the corners, as in the case with Mountainash, there’s no commercial at all, some “stroad”, eh?

 

[mistersg1]

Well, yes. Because that was the nature of the traditional city/town/village in Ontario: they were governmentally separate entities from townships. And that was the pre-region/pre-Mike Harris nature of the political map of Ontario: counties divided into townships, and amidst that matrix of townships you'd find this-and-that funny blob that was a city, a town, or a village.

Sort of like this, when it came to the immediate Toronto environs in 1959

https://neptis.org/sites/default/files/styles/900w/public/historical_commentary/4_1959_metro_planning_area.jpg?itok=lxE06BKl

Malton was a somewhat different case: a semi-autonomous "police village"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_village

It's true that a lot of Chinguacousy oxygen was sucked up by Brampton--but it was also geographically bigger, extending N into present-day Caledon and including places like Cheltenham. Even today within Brampton, the principal extant hamlets are the likes of Huttonville & Churchville & Snelgrove.

But one big difference w/Chinguacousy compared to Toronto Twp is that from the getgo, it was more "agricultural heartland" in nature--outside of Brampton, its settlement largely took the form of sleepy farms and four-corners--and moreover, until the 401 was built in the late 50s it was too remote for the commuter belt. Or at most, it was to Toronto Twp then what present-day Caledon is to Brampton/Mississauga.

A big reason why places like Clarkson or Cooksville or Erindale still hold a certain "weight" is that already, long before it became Mississauga, Toronto Twp was making its mark as a commuter 'burb and those places served as "settlement anchors" (and even the "agricultural" economy was more market-garden based, which was more commuter-amenable in its way). Whereas Bramalea's development was of the sort that superseded all need for preexisting "settlement anchors".

Can I ask what exactly is meant by “four-corners” in your post?

I’ve often heard that the intersection of Queen and Main in Brampton is the Four Corners, and also is noteworthy of there being a bank on each corner. (at least traditionally) Brampton’s library close to here is called the Four Corners branch of course, so by that name, are you referring to Brampton’s Four Corners or any “four corners” in the forgotten Hamlets like Nortonville, Woodhill.