Post: Great, if you could hop a track home

[allabootmatt]

Someone really should send Kyle Rae an email about this. I'd be happy too...he is technically my councillor. I really do think that if the DRL, in some form, were to make it to or near the top of the city's transit wish-list, the support for it from the public would be absolutely overwhelming. Particularly given that it could be accomplished at little cost on existing rail ROWs. It just makes so much damned sense. But it has fallen so far off the agenda that no one even thinks of it anymore.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I love how individual buildings can justify subway alignments (CAMH for Spadina, Osgoode Hall for Queen, etc.). Of course, Spadina would be a very different street today if the University line has been built there...a good deal of what was mentioned could have been razed.

A DRL doesn't preclude a Queen subway in the future, or even a Dundas subway (no one ever mentions a Dundas subway, but it's got some merit).

 

[adma]

Of course, Spadina would be a very different street today if the University line has been built there...a good deal of what was mentioned could have been razed.

But so what? Bellyaching over such stuff might be, in socialwoe's eyes, on the wrong side of the "line between nostalgia and just plain common sense". Stop hugging old crocks like the El Mocambo; Toronto ought to be moving FORWARD...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The El Mocambo could be saved by an elevated line that ran on its roof.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

I think we're forgetting that a subway along Spadina (c. 1960 onwards) would have run headlong into the then-plans for the proposed Spadina Expressway linking up with the Gardiner. In other words, not on Sam Cass' radar.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Expressway could also have run on rooftops?

 

[adma]

No, the expressway would have Decarie'd Spadina.

Though was(n't) the Spadina-in-the-median up around Yorkdale already mooted then? Wouldn't be surprised if a "median subway" was planned down here, too--after all, they already had such an arrangement even in places like Chicago...

 

[socialwoe]

Sigh...socialwoe, yes, in retrospect it would have been nice if the subway had been built along Spadina. However, it wasn't. That is why the Downtown Relief Line along Front would be very useful.

It's just seems logical given the heavy traffic along Spadina today, even additional 510 buses are called on to carry the load sometimes. Apart from St Andrew, University isn't that dense but then what would expect from a hospital ward zone!
Anyway, the extent of DRL's usefulness is Exhibition, Fort, John, Bay, Jarvis and Parliament; but it's not that I dislike the DRL completely, it's that I'd want better for the existing nodes along King/Queen/Dundas than periodic, sluggishly travelling streetcars and this plan would backwater a subway up there for several decades if ever.

Most of the spots you mentioned (it seems you're just enumerating the stops on your fantasy map) would be well-served by a DRL turning north at Roncesvalles. In the real world you can't divert an east-west subway down over a kilometre and back up again, so clearly a Queen line cannot serve the waterfront.

Oh how we fail to dream. I bet if Scarberian suggested we divert the Sheppard line up Finch and down again (which he has) over a km you'd have no problem with it. The spots on my subway map we're put there for a reason. There's at least one major node/tripper nearby that qualifies for it's inclusion. If not they're there because of half-concession spacing (Jones, Niagara, Beech).

A DRL would encourage growth exactly where the city wants it: in the West Don Lands, Port Lands, East Bayfront, Railway Lands, and Fort York neighbourhood.

Oh how the new condo owners will relish and shrill in glee! Too bad the same courtesy is not allotted to long-suffering, long-standing residents and workers and visitors who still would withstand the pangs of arduous streetcar travel!

I love how individual buildings can justify subway alignments (CAMH for Spadina, Osgoode Hall for Queen, etc.). Of course, Spadina would be a very different street today if the University line has been built there...a good deal of what was mentioned could have been razed.

Not individual, collective. Not every stop can be a winner and note I didn't even mention of numerous transit connections that'd abridge the forever durations it takes to get to the current YUS. If the subway/expressway is buried I fail to see how that'd destroy surface life?

A DRL doesn't preclude a Queen subway in the future, or even a Dundas subway (no one ever mentions a Dundas subway, but it's got some merit).

But when? Remember VCC. That's where priority's heading! It'd be way off before we even get DRL, could you provide a number of the year you expect a Queen subway to be put back into the priority sphere? And a subway on Dundas? That's worse then your McCowan idea and I didn't think you could get more moronic. Apart from Chinatown and the nodes lying within range of existing YUS there's absolutely zero need for it, expect, of course if you want another subway line to divert northwards leaving the gammit of southeast Toronto and south Etobicoke scrambling for run-every-half-hour-bus routes.

 

[unimaginative2]

Apart from St Andrew, University isn't that dense but then what would expect from a hospital ward zone!

The University stations north of St. Andrew are some of the busiest on the system.

Anyway, the extent of DRL's usefulness is Exhibition, Fort, John, Bay, Jarvis and Parliament;

I'd say that's pretty useful. Beside that, its main reason for existence is relieving pressure on the Yonge line, Bloor line, and Bloor-Yonge station, allowing for extensions of those routes. In addition, a Cherry station would be very supportive of the West Don Lands and Port Lands developments, a highly desirable attribute. Even a stop at Gerrard and Pape could provoke a revitalization of the Gerrard Square area.

Oh how we fail to dream. I bet if Scarberian suggested we divert the Sheppard line up Finch and down again (which he has) over a km you'd have no problem with it.

Scarberian never, ever suggested diverting the Sheppard line up to Finch and down again. He once mused about running the DRL from Don Mills and Finch east along Finch and up Warden.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I bet if Scarberian suggested we divert the Sheppard line up Finch and down again (which he has) over a km you'd have no problem with it.

You really can't grasp the concept of a subway along Sheppard shifting up to and staying on Finch, can you? The Spadina line does this by shifting from Spadina to Dufferin over the course of its length...these are not jogs.

Apart from Chinatown and the nodes lying within range of existing YUS there's absolutely zero need for it

Yeah, how truly awful of me to think of all the people taking the Dundas and College streetcars when I should just be thinking about Queen. A Dundas + Front combo would effectively handle all downtown streetcar traffic...how useful is a solitary Queen line for College or for the waterfront? Queen has so many "nodes" east of Yonge, such as...the Beach, and...the other Beach, and...

 

[socialwoe]

You really can't grasp the concept of a subway along Sheppard shifting up to and staying on Finch, can you? The Spadina line does this by shifting from Spadina to Dufferin over the course of its length...these are not jogs.

Not if it isn't necessitious. If DRL and YUS already cover the nodes on Finch you feel warrant subways why can't the subway remain on Sheppard where it'd be of greater benefit to the Hwy 27-Dixon corridor nodes than the alternative of serving only Jane-Finch (Weston-Finch not saying much, west of here even worse) which would be flanked by several subway stops anyway (407-Jane, Steeles-Jane, York U, Keele-Finch, Keele-Sheppard, Arleta-Sheppard, Jane-Sheppard, Oakdale-Sheppard)? Do you seriously think everyone needing Jane-Finch don't actually reside/work/sch on the periphery and head for this intersection just because they have no other option for transit in this area? This plan of running upto Don Mills-Finch than east to Warden (I'm assuming you'd run it upto Markham Town Centre too) totally contradicts your plan to run Sheppard to STC, a plan we butted heads over before. So which is it MTC or STC?

Yeah, how truly awful of me to think of all the people taking the Dundas and College streetcars when I should just be thinking about Queen.

The 506 is immaterial, it sees the least traffic of the downtown streetcars and coincidentally is the one closest to BD, 5 mins tops. Dundas+Queen+King exceeds 125, 000 ppd plus think of all the south of Bloor bus routes from VP to Shorncliffe adding in more passengers. That's nearly half a million and Queen runs through the center of that. Dundas would lose some of this volume due to being farther away from the core than Queen, and only contain a fraction of the nodes Queen has.

A Dundas + Front combo would effectively handle all downtown streetcar traffic...how useful is a solitary Queen line for College or for the waterfront?

I told you Queen could be interlined with the Front line if need be since I wholeheartedly believe the city would not finance both DRL and Queen. Wasn't Queen once proposed as a flying U subway? Why couldn't it veer to serve the central waterfront since you feel it's so vital? It could even be a continuous loop line, who knows.

Queen has so many "nodes" east of Yonge, such as...the Beach, and...the other Beach, and...

I enjoy your ignorance sometimes, it makes disgracing you all the much better.
Queen East:
-St Lawrence Market/Hummingbird Centre/Esplanade
-Moss Park/pawn shop district/several offices
-Regent Park low income housing/Bayfront East/Don Lands W
-Queen-Broadview Village/GO connection
-Gerrard Sq walking distance/Studio District/industries
-Leslieville/Waterfront revitalization
-Ashbridges/Woodbine Park/Greenwood Telewagering
-Woodbine Beach/Woodbine Mews townhouses/Kew Gardens
-Balmy Beach Park revitalized by existence of subway
-Fox Beaches Cinema/Queen East novelty shopping
-Toronto Hunt Club/Fallingbrook/Scarborough Bluffs/RM Gdns
-Birchmount/Cliffside Village or Shopper's World alternatively

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ Wow, that's quite a list of "nodes" you've got there!!!!! I think you missed some restaurants and a few townhouses, though. And RC Harris is a node, too!

So which is it MTC or STC?

I have no idea what you're talking about...that whole paragraph is gibberish.

Wasn't Queen once proposed as a flying U subway? Why couldn't it veer to serve the central waterfront since you feel it's so vital?

The waterfront is vital...you might be the only person who doesn't think so. Every parking lot that disappears down there is replaced by residents...the demand for transit will only go up. The flying U plan is irrelevantly obsolete.

I wholeheartedly believe the city would not finance both DRL and Queen.

Well, they should.

 

[socialwoe]

^ Wow, that's quite a list of "nodes" you've got there!!!!! I think you missed some restaurants and a few townhouses, though. And RC Harris is a node, too!

Why not! Closing down the filtration plant and putting some condos there wouldn't hurt. It'd definitely make a subway to Fallingbrook an inexcusable must, that's for sure. Anyway you know Queen East deserves a subway long before your suburban dreck, just stop fighting it already!

I have no idea what you're talking about...that whole paragraph is gibberish.

Not gibberish, a response to your previous thoughts on diverting Sheppard away from Sheppard under your charge that a single node (if you can call Jane-Finch a node) is worth sacrificing quicker links to the airport, Dixon corridor, Woodbine Racetrack and Humber College plus miss the boat at revitalizing Downsview/North-central Etobicoke. I misread Unimaginative's comment and thought you also wanted to veer Sheppard upto Finch which was confusing to say the least.

The waterfront is vital...you might be the only person who doesn't think so. Every parking lot that disappears down there is replaced by residents...the demand for transit will only go up. The flying U plan is irrelevantly obsolete.

I never said it wasn't vital, I said I don't want it built at the expense of Queen which is situated more centrally downtown through the heart of CBD, and is the only through route (Front, King, Dundas cut off) capable of linking Scarborough to Mississauga. I don't think the ridership would be as high as a Queen line would and traffic would be highest for only about one concession (Bathurst to Yonge).

Well, they should.

Knowing sTingy(T)C they won't. We'll probably wind up with a consolidated loop line of them both, hopefully with a fair amount of stations.

 

[adma]

Why not! Closing down the filtration plant and putting some condos there wouldn't hurt. It'd definitely make a subway to Fallingbrook an inexcusable must, that's for sure.

Are you serious?

Are you serious?

Are you serious?

www.nonstick.com/sounds/Y...ys_038.wav

Socialwoe, an idea like that would brand you as the most insensitive sleazebag imaginable. If you treated women the same way you treated Toronto's cultural mythology...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, he's serious.

I never said it wasn't vital, I said I don't want it built at the expense of Queen

The reality is neither line will be built within the next generation so there's no point worrying about how one might preempt the other until then.

I don't think the ridership would be as high as a Queen line would and traffic would be highest for only about one concession (Bathurst to Yonge).

Actually, ridership would be much higher than Queen since it'd relieve the B/D line at Dundas and Pape and probably continue on north. But, again, that wouldn't prevent a Queen line from being successful, too...downtown can handle both lines since transit usage would explode.