Population of Toronto (Including Census Counts)

[W. K. Lis]

I believe that there will be sufficient demand in the new condos being built in the downtown city core. What we need to improve upon is the infrastructure for people commuting into the city. I am not surprised in the least that the 905 suburbs will/have experienced significant growth over the past decade. It's inevitable that we'd grow out then up. The inflow of people to the city core far outweighs the outflow of people travelling out of the city for work, especially with many large companies having a renewed interest in establishing their mainstay in Toronto versus in the suburbs. Toronto is a fairly transient city and as long as the economy is healthy, which it is for the most part, people will come and situate themselves in both the suburbs and the city core.

Unfortunately, those condos are small, very small. Maybe good for singles or couples, but not families. Unless, sometime in the future, we see people buying two adjoining suites and merging them together to create one larger suite.

 

[taal]

Condos outside of the 416 (or the core in particular) tend to be substantially bigger. Maybe not as so much in MCC.

But all the condos going up around Warden (not the downtown Markham ones, but the ones around it) a 2 bedroom is typically 900-1400square feet.

 

[kkgg7]

Unfortunately, those condos are small, very small. Maybe good for singles or couples, but not families. Unless, sometime in the future, we see people buying two adjoining suites and merging them together to create one larger suite.

really? i think there are a lot of two bedroom condos which are suitable for families with 1 or 2 small children.
to buy two suites and merge into one could be expensive! plus you would end up with 2 livingroom and 2 kitchens, among other duplicated areas, which makes no sense.

 

[cdr108]

to buy two suites and merge into one could be expensive! plus you would end up with 2 livingroom and 2 kitchens, among other duplicated areas, which makes no sense.

well they do that in NYC and you have no objections to comparisons other times.
obviously one would be renovating the units to accomodate the new situation.

 

[kkgg7]

well they do that in NYC and you have no objections to comparisons other times.
obviously one would be renovating the units to accomodate the new situation.

would it make more sense to buy a large unit (usually in older buildings) and start to rearrange rooms?
For example, there are many one bedroom apartments over 700/800sf, which should be large enough to convert into 2br (some new condos have 600sf 2bd units), and 1000sf can be converted into 3br. When I was condo shopping, I saw a 770sf one bedroom condo at Yonge/Church, with huge livingroom and bedroom, at $320K.

I myself still firmly believe developers don't build 3bd condos because of the lack of interest in them. In order to live in condos, families need to make do with smaller space (for example, 300sf per person), with combined living/dining/family room/kitchen, smaller bedroom (120sf or under), a sacrifice many families are reluctant to make.

Having children should not be a reason why condos can't work for families. Just don't spoil them as if they need infinite space. Home is not a place for kids to run anywhere else in the world. Kids in Hong Kong, Toyko and NYC grow fine in apartment buildings, so will Toronto kids.

 

[cdr108]

would it make more sense to buy a large unit (usually in older buildings) and start to rearrange rooms?
For example, there are many one bedroom apartments over 700/800sf, which should be large enough to convert into 2br (some new condos have 600sf 2bd units), and 1000sf can be converted into 3br. When I was condo shopping, I saw a 770sf one bedroom condo at Yonge/Church, with huge livingroom and bedroom, at $320K.

I myself still firmly believe developers don't build 3bd condos because of the lack of interest in them. In order to live in condos, families need to make do with smaller space (for example, 300sf per person), with combined living/dining/family room/kitchen, smaller bedroom (120sf or under), a sacrifice many families are reluctant to make.

Having children should not be a reason why condos can't work for families. Just don't spoil them as if they need infinite space. Home is not a place for kids to run anywhere else in the world. Kids in Hong Kong, Toyko and NYC grow fine in apartment buildings, so will Toronto kids.

maybe the ppl bought something small like those 550 sf 1 bed because that's all they needed/could afford at the moment, then got married and had a family. now more space is needed.
they like the location / building and don't wish to leave and let's say a 350 sf studio next door is for sale.

also selling and buying another larger place results in higher r/e commissions, land transfer taxes, moving fees, etc.

1000 sf is definitely doable as a 3br/2 bath if laid out properly

 

[W. K. Lis]

When our first son was born in 1982, we bought a 1,600 sf 3-bedroom + den condo in the Jane & Eglinton area. It served our purpose for the first few years, since we had use of an swimming pool where we taught the kids to swim. Later moved into a house nearby, but still have relatives in that building. Now that the kids are grown up, they remark that most of the new condos they had seen are too small, and they are single and looking for a 2-bedroom. Unfortunately, the maintenance fees in what was my old building are too high nowadays. That is one problem, if you want a large apartment condo, the maintenance fees will be too high, especially in old buildings.

 

[toraerach]

Unfortunately, those condos are small, very small. Maybe good for singles or couples, but not families. Unless, sometime in the future, we see people buying two adjoining suites and merging them together to create one larger suite.

Aside from families, the focus on singles and couples makes other living arrangements difficult if not impossible. Many condos end up on the rental market, but very few of the ones we're building today are particularly well suited for roommates.

 

[gristle]

Unfortunately, the maintenance fees in what was my old building are too high nowadays. That is one problem, if you want a large apartment condo, the maintenance fees will be too high, especially in old buildings.

That's for sure. I saw a beautiful 1,000 sq. ft. unit in a somewhat older building just south of St. Clair. The maintenance fees were higher than my present mortgage.

 

[Tewder]

Having children should not be a reason why condos can't work for families. Just don't spoil them as if they need infinite space. Home is not a place for kids to run anywhere else in the world. Kids in Hong Kong, Toyko and NYC grow fine in apartment buildings, so will Toronto kids.

Does anybody ever ask the kids? Kids will adapt to their environment, for sure, but I'm sure that most would opt for a home, a back yard and a neighbourhood with other kids. Good god, do they really care about an urban lifestyle? Seems like a projection of urban parents to me... and not that there's anything wrong with raising a family in the city!... but in a condo? Not so sure. Kids may not 'run around' in Hong Kong but is that the version of childhood we should aspire to? No thanks.

 

[kkgg7]

Does anybody ever ask the kids? Kids will adapt to their environment, for sure, but I'm sure that most would opt for a home, a back yard and a neighbourhood with other kids. Good god, do they really care about an urban lifestyle? Seems like a projection of urban parents to me... and not that there's anything wrong with raising a family in the city!... but in a condo? Not so sure. Kids may not 'run around' in Hong Kong but is that the version of childhood we should aspire to? No thanks.

The US, Canada and Australian are probably the only countries where the land is so vast compared with population (because they are the new world with only a few hundred years of history), that it is taken from granted that kids should grow up in a house with yards. It is not the mainstream lifestyle worldwide, however. The vast majority of children in Asia and Europe grow up in apartment buildings. That's what is considered common. I don't know why you are so surprised about raising kids "in condos" -, maybe because you are from North America, but that's what probably 80% of the world's population does. I guarantee you there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Children will grow up as happy and healthy as those in 3000sf houses, and don't feel sorry for them at all. And there are advantages about that too. Parents have much shorter commute and get to spend on average 2 hours per day with their children, instead of driving on the highways. That's a lot of hours for the entire childhood, and might beat having a large back yard.

If given a choice, would I prefer I had grew up in a house with a backyard, not in a four storey apartment? I can't care less. We had a sizable playground near the building, and we played outside, instead of a private backyard, all the time. What can a kid do in a backyard anyway, run in circles?

 

[toraerach]

Does anybody ever ask the kids? Kids will adapt to their environment, for sure, but I'm sure that most would opt for a home, a back yard and a neighbourhood with other kids. Good god, do they really care about an urban lifestyle? Seems like a projection of urban parents to me... and not that there's anything wrong with raising a family in the city!... but in a condo? Not so sure. Kids may not 'run around' in Hong Kong but is that the version of childhood we should aspire to? No thanks.

Kids are already growing up in apartment buildings all over the city, they just happen to be older mostly rental buildings. The vast majority of those kids are not being brought up by the stereotypical "urban parents" (which I'd roughly equate with the stereotypical "downtown elitists," in that both terms seem to describe the same type of mythical people).

There are trade-offs, to be sure, when raising a kid in a condo or other apartment building. For example, if these kids' parents work downtown, maybe having their parents around the home for more of the day (instead of long-distance commuting) outweighs having a street to run around on.

Living in a newly built condo may today be a lifestyle choice. In fact, at this point the word "condo" itself carries much more social and cultural baggage beyond simply signifying an ownership structure - currently it is tied to some notion of lifestyle. This will not last for ever, as indeed the white-picket-fence-suburban-lifestyle ideal is waning today. These buildings are going to be around with us for a while. Should we not reasonably plan for diverse and readily adaptable unit types to ensure that buildings are able to accomodate socioeconomic and demographic changes? Isn't monocultural development - the tailoring of vast tracts of land to one specific lifestyle ideal - exactly what's screwing over the suburbs today as they face dramatic social change?

And again, larger units with more bedrooms does not always = family with children. It could be roommates. It could be a couple with an elderly parent. It could be a single person who works from home and needs plenty of office space (and remember that consolidating your living and working space is another form of density in itself). It could be a couple with older children, especially given the trend for young adults to live longer with their parents. There are countless opportunities that bachelors and one-bedroom apartments just aren't particularly suited for, but that need to be accomodated for neighbourhoods and communities to develop in a sustainable way.

 

[ssiguy2]

That would mean Toronto's population has grown about 10% from 2006 when it stood at approx 2,503,000. So how is it if we are to believe all these figures being thrown around that from 2001 to 2006 it grew less than 1% yet 5 years later grew 10%. Is this possible?

No, Toronto has not grown that fast.
Remember that the stas you are using from the 2006 census does NOT include undercount. This is why estimates for years after the census report often show cities having grown faster than what is to be expected. Years following the initial census report DO include the undercount. Undercounts can vary from city to city but the general rule of thumb is that official census numbers are undercounted by about 3%. This means Toronto has grown by about 6% to 7% in the last 5 years or about 1.2% to 1.4% per annum.

 

[Palma]

really? i think there are a lot of two bedroom condos which are suitable for families with 1 or 2 small children.
to buy two suites and merge into one could be expensive! plus you would end up with 2 livingroom and 2 kitchens, among other duplicated areas, which makes no sense.

You think a 2 bedroom 600 sq ft condo is sufficient for 4 people? If 2 small condos are merged, obviously 1 kitchen would come one, and the 2 living room really means a more decent size of 1 living room. There would need to be renos done to merge 2 condos obviously. Once the prices drop on these condos i could see people doing that in the future. And its true that it is in North America this thing with children needing to be brought up in houses because its what people have been used to. A friend in my son's class from school came over from Barcelona for 2 years with his family. They just moved back to Barcelona and the mother told me they want to live in the city which means they need to live in a condo which is what they were living in before. We live in a house of less than 1100 sq ft and my son's friend said this house is a castle compared to where they were living in Barcelona. But its what they are used to. And as the mother told me also, the apartments there are 4-6 storey. You may find 9-10 storey further out of the city because people do not want them she says.

 

[MisterF]

Does anybody ever ask the kids? Kids will adapt to their environment, for sure, but I'm sure that most would opt for a home, a back yard and a neighbourhood with other kids. Good god, do they really care about an urban lifestyle? Seems like a projection of urban parents to me... and not that there's anything wrong with raising a family in the city!... but in a condo? Not so sure. Kids may not 'run around' in Hong Kong but is that the version of childhood we should aspire to? No thanks.

Do kids even care about a suburban lifestyle? Seems like a projection of suburban parents to me...

By the way, kids live in apartments, whether they're condo or rental, all over the suburbs. My building has lots of kids. And the park across the street is constantly busy. It's a very social place, with a lot of room to play.