Policing Attitudes

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The rounding up of "peaceful protestors" was made necessary by their unwillingness to identify the lawbreakers, so the police had to assume they all were, else they end up unintentionally releasing someone who would later commit arson. They did go a bit over the line though in that case.

It's not a "bit" over the top - as per the OIPRD report, it is "unreasonable, unnecessary and unlawful". Please explain to me the last, underlined point.

As for Brian Sonne, I'm not 100% familiar with the details of his case, but wasn't he the security guy who purchased bomb making materials with the intention of making them? If that is the case then yea I think abusing his civil rights a little to avoid a freaking bomb go off in downtown Toronto is justified. What would have happened if Montreal police had been tough with the FLQ threat before bombs started going off instead of being reactionary?

Arresting him for an immediate threat is one thing, detaining him for an extended period and charging him for basically bomb-making when there is no evidence of him doing so long after G20 ended is another. Nice try bringing in the FLQ though - are we so insecure that we need to bring THAT up to justify everything? When are we going to invoke the War Measures Act (now Emergencies Act)?

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Not related to G20, but an appropriate article considering the topic:
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...akes-heat-for-arresting-off-duty-officer?bn=1

An officer harassed by his colleagues for doing the right thing after arresting an off duty police officer for drunk driving. Another example of cops believing they're above the law that they're sworn to uphold.

Wow ... not sure why clearly corrupt police officers like James Little or Suhail Khawaja were not terminated with prejudice.

 

[doug]

By all means, please point out where I "admit" I am biased.

I quoted it for you

Maybe it's time for you to

use those things that see and that thing inside your skull.

 

[brockm]

Wow ... not sure why clearly corrupt police officers like James Little or Suhail Khawaja were not terminated with prejudice.

Because, lets see... the whole police force is corrupt? By the very virtue of the culture which pervades it? It could be that, maybe. Just maybe.

 

[brockm]

The level of "corruption" within the police is greatly exaggerated and sensationalized by people who are obsessed with George Orwell and proving that we're living in a 1985 era. It gets tiresome. If there was anything serious to be worried about is a different story... or real proof instead of posters like neubilder saying "duuudee, we're like totally in a police state man, it's pretty much Toronto, Syria amirite?". As someone related to former OPP officers as well as a couple current OPP officers it's offensive claiming they're all corrupt scumbags who brutally beat some poor g20 pacifists who were just standing next to that broken window with a baseball bat peacefully or just lighting that molotov cocktail for warmth. I've completely stopped opening anything related to the g20 and the like as it is just too infuriating. People are spoiled and don't realize it.

So, I was physically detained and searched on the Monday preceding the event while walking across the downtown core towards where I live at Yonge & Lakeshore. I was working that day. At my six-figure-plus job. Where this libertarian I pays apeloads of taxes to help fund these jackboots.

I refused the clearly illegal search. And the OIPRD report makes note of many other cases like mine where the searches were completely, utterly, fucking illegal. The police physically grabbed me, spun me around, removed my knapsack with my company laptop and my possessions and proceded to remove them and inspect them -- including questioning me about the fact that I had a conference badge from Google IO that said "Mike Brock" as my name where as the drivers license they physically removed from my wallet as I refused to participate in their illegal arrest identified me as "Christopher Michael Brock" -- and proceeded to swear at me, saying that I was personally engaging in the endangerment of Toronto citizens by not cooperating with them, and a whole bunch of other things which were insulting and some that bordered on degrading.

And to top it all off, when it ended, and I protested what had just happened to me, they refused to identify themselves to me. Their nametags had been removed from their vests, and the lead officer merely smirked at me and repeated "you can go now sir" to every protest.

If you think that my outrage to this situation is the result of me being "spoiled", then I would certainly find it gratifying karma to find you the unsuspecting victim of police overreach.

The fact that you would even entertain incidents like this as some sort of acceptable background noise to your stated necessity of policing only reveals the thinly-veiled hard on and double standard you apply for authority figures.

I'm sick of people like you. I'm sick of people who say that we should just brush these incidents off because "most police are hard working". I'm hard working. I work 80 hour weeks to bring in my salary and support my family. I often spend 14 hours at the office, go home, miss my daughter going to bed at night, and stay up working all night to keep up with my workload at work.

I'm sure that if my stress got to me one day, and I popped back a few cool ones and proceeded to beat my wife and daughter, you'd be first in line to say: "Hey, cut him a break, he has a hard job."

 

[cityslicker]

It seems like G20 people took over this post.. lol. I blame the Harper Government. Toronto was a stupid location for the G20 and it should have been held up north where it was originally SUPPOSED to be, and WHERE they happened to get all of the FEDERAL MONEY, millions in infrastructure investment for the event.

Regardless.. it happened and people should get over it. Anarchists terrorized the city.. and Toronto Police put a stop to it. I hope the next G20 is in a third world country, and all those who want to go protest can go enjoy themselves for a week of no water, no food, oh yeah and find out what the inside of a third world jail looks like when you REALLY HAVE NO RIGHTS. ... lol
and not waste my tax dollars abusing the Canadian legal system to try and prevent police from doing their jobs. Lose the smart ass attitude just show the cops your ID, and show them your bag, to prove you're not one of the bums they're looking for and move along. I wonder if BrockM.. would have the same attitude if his wife and daughter were attacked that day or were trying to call the police for some kind of help. But all the cops in the whole country were being tied up trying to deal with g20 criminals and g20 smart ass "legal" protestors... like himself.
If you, your family, your friends, ever need to dial 9,1,1 I hope there isn't a group of bums wasting all of the city's resources and POLICE, FIRE and EMS can promptly respond to help you. Regardless of your entitled smart ass attitude.

 

[Red October]

I quoted it for you

Maybe it's time for you to

Your quoted post really provided no proof that I was biased. Maybe you don't know what bias is?
All it showed was that I get offended by the sensationalism of people saying ALL police are bad because of a few bad apples. But you've proven yourself to be one for exaggeration.

 

[Red October]

The fact that you would even entertain incidents like this as some sort of acceptable background noise to your stated necessity of policing only reveals the thinly-veiled hard on and double standard you apply for authority figures.

I'm sick of people like you. I'm sick of people who say that we should just brush these incidents off because "most police are hard working". I'm hard working. I work 80 hour weeks to bring in my salary and support my family. I often spend 14 hours at the office, go home, miss my daughter going to bed at night, and stay up working all night to keep up with my workload at work.

I'm sure that if my stress got to me one day, and I popped back a few cool ones and proceeded to beat my wife and daughter, you'd be first in line to say: "Hey, cut him a break, he has a hard job."

Oh give me a break.. Read my posts and you'll see I would not defend cops for anything, just against unreasonable persecution by obsessive anti-cop types like you. Of course I wouldn't defend one in the case of domestic abuse, I wouldn't defend anyone in domestic abuse, no matter what their job, gender, age, whatever. I said earlier I would welcome an investigation for drunk driving because that's a serious issue. It's the ridiculous exaggeration and sensationalism that I get annoyed by.

For someone with a "six figure job", reading comprehension sure seems to be your Achilles heel.

 

[Red October]

It seems like G20 people took over this post.. lol. I blame the Harper Government. Toronto was a stupid location for the G20 and it should have been held up north where it was originally SUPPOSED to be, and WHERE they happened to get all of the FEDERAL MONEY, millions in infrastructure investment for the event.

Regardless.. it happened and people should get over it. Anarchists terrorized the city.. and Toronto Police put a stop to it. I hope the next G20 is in a third world country, and all those who want to go protest can go enjoy themselves for a week of no water, no food, oh yeah and find out what the inside of a third world jail looks like when you REALLY HAVE NO RIGHTS. ... lol
and not waste my tax dollars abusing the Canadian legal system to try and prevent police from doing their jobs. Lose the smart ass attitude just show the cops your ID, and show them your bag, to prove you're not one of the bums they're looking for and move along. I wonder if BrockM.. would have the same attitude if his wife and daughter were attacked that day or were trying to call the police for some kind of help. But all the cops in the whole country were being tied up trying to deal with g20 criminals and g20 smart ass "legal" protestors... like himself.
If you, your family, your friends, ever need to dial 9,1,1 I hope there isn't a group of bums wasting all of the city's resources and POLICE, FIRE and EMS can promptly respond to help you. Regardless of your entitled smart ass attitude.

^ This guy right here.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Architect

Why would or should anyone who refuse unlawful searches be subjected to verbal abuse, intimidation with the presiding individual refusing to divulge his identity? There are the rules set forth by the law - please explain to me why the very basis of police authority is invalid in this case, so far as we know that these rules weren't suspended.

As to the matter of domestic abuse, I am fairly certain you are familiar with the "blue wall of silence", no? Here is a good case of what covering each other's asses gets you.

Cityslicker

No offense, on the matter of "resources" - please kindly remind me how much overtime was provided, vs. compensation for damages to the local merchants. Or on that matter - how you'd feel if you got caught in the kettling incident. Oh but of course, the mere presence in that area meant that the individuals are "bums" who "had it coming", right?

AoD

 

[Red October]

The Architect

Why would or should anyone who refuse unlawful searches be subjected to verbal abuse, intimidation with the presiding individual refusing to divulge his identity? There are the rules set forth by the law - please explain to me why the very basis of police authority is invalid in this case, so far as we know that these rules weren't suspended.

They absolutely shouldn't in any regular time, and if brockm's account of the incident is true and not exaggerated at all (which it probably is somewhat), then that is powertripping and wrong. However, in almost any first world country you will get interrogation of sorts leading up to and during an event where many world leaders will be present, which is assassination fodder, this is not unique to Toronto. . What I defend is their actions during the riots to quell them.
As for removing their names and badge numbers, that was wrong as well, though you never know if someone will take that information and put their family in danger, extremists exist unfortunately.

When I personally walked from Union to work during the event, I was questioned and asked for ID, which I provided as well as my security clearance to my building, and when they asked to check my bag I held it open so they could see it had papers and my lunch. I didn't receive any more problems. It's amazing what happens when you pick your battles.

As to the matter of domestic abuse, I am fairly certain you are familiar with the "blue wall of silence", no? Here is a good case of what covering each other's asses gets you.

The blue wall of silence is not a constant law among all police officers. But, like I have said, just because there are rotten apples doesn't mean you need to cut down the tree.

 

[doug]

Your quoted post really provided no proof that I was biased

..other then the part where you said "yup, I'm biased..."

You should try not to be so intellectually dishonest.

 

[Red October]

..other then the part where you said "yup, I'm biased..."

You should try not to be so intellectually dishonest.

Speaking of intellectually dishonest, are you related to Glenn Beck by any chance? Talk about taking a quote out of context.

This was my real quote:

Yup, I'm biased to the point of being offended when people say "we're in a police state" when a cop gets away with a speeding ticket... because it's stupid.

So first of all I'll leave this here... Second of all when you try and lecture somebody about being "intellectually dishonest", make sure you're not being a hypocrite.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Architect:

They absolutely shouldn't in any regular time, and if brockm's account of the incident is true and not exaggerated at all (which it probably is somewhat), then that is powertripping and wrong.

They shouldn't and yet they did. What's the intent of trying undermine what's being said? One case is an aberration - a report full of such instances suggests systemic abuse.

As for removing their names and badge numbers, that was wrong as well, though you never know if someone will take that information and put their family in danger, extremists exist unfortunately.

It is wrong, period. There are justifications allowed for the latter, this situation ain't it - to mention it (the ifs, ands, or buts) is basically trying to justify the unjustifable.

When I personally walked from Union to work during the event, I was questioned and asked for ID, which I provided as well as my security clearance to my building, and when they asked to check my bag I held it open so they could see it had papers and my lunch. I didn't receive any more problems. It's amazing what happens when you pick your battles.

Why should one have to "pick their battles"? The police overstepped their bounds, that battle shouldn't have to be fought in the first place. Offering these post-hoc justifications is distracting from the real issue, with is wrong-doing.

The blue wall of silence is not a constant law among all police officers. But, like I have said, just because there are rotten apples doesn't mean you need to cut down the tree.

No one is suggesting a) it is a constant law and b) it is universal. To steer the conversation to such extremes when the issue is clearly systematic is basically going to the GW Bush "you're with us or against us" rhetoric. To use the "rotten apple" analogy - you don't necessarily cut down the tree, but you might trim the branches beyond the apple. The apple, is more often than not, still hidden by those branches.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Regardless.. it happened and people should get over it.

People should get over that police physcially attacked and beat innocent people? That they broke the law in so many ways?

Some police were so completely corrupt that they deliberately removed their mandatory identification from their uniform before they went out there. Things getting out of hand is one thing ... rushing in a situation without warrants is one thing ... but the degree of evil that is necessary to actually sit and remove your identification before you go out is completely premeditated. These police should be terminated with prejudice.