Genuinely curious, not being rhetorical... if y'all are bemoaning Carney accepting Gladu, selling out to filthy capitalists and AI bros just 1 year into his term, how much more dystopian were you assuming PP would be? Trans erasure? Canadian ICE? 51st state? I keep hearing how Carney is the next Stephen Harper, but not hearing a lot of substantive comparison or criticism of policy beyond zingy one-liners.
IMO even under Harper, Canada was in a better spot socially than the USA... much less the 150+ developing countries
A PC government (which is what we're getting now), is still better than a Reform government of social conservatives trying to roll back progress on top of being corporate lap dogs. He ran on hanging out with right wing extremists that threatened to rape his own wife, and pandered to the incel crowd, while supporting a movement that sought to topple the government.
There was the Trudeau era which left the country in a dire state, and now the Carney era, which has yet to improve the country back to pre-Trudeau levels.
So you don’t see that Prosecution and Welfare policies are Provincial responsibility in this country?
Have you noticed that the Scandinavian culture is much more New Testament, Jesus, forgiveness and compassion, whereas the Canadian Conservative culture (like PP) is more Old Testament, the Abrahamic God, with the vengeance, condemnation and an eye for an eye that goes with it. Even the more liberal states are more merciless to the humans who commit non violent crimes than we are here.
So you don’t see that Prosecution and Welfare policies are Provincial responsibility in this country?
Have you noticed that the Scandinavian culture is much more New Testament, Jesus, forgiveness and compassion, whereas the Canadian Conservative culture (like PP) is more Old Testament, the Abrahamic God, with the vengeance, condemnation and an eye for an eye that goes with it. Even the more liberal states are more merciless to the humans who commit non violent crimes than we are here.
I don't think Harper is the same, let alone worse, than PP. Even if PP might've been an improvement over Trudeau in some ways, I didn't support him primarily because of his anti-MAiD views and the possibility of cancelling transit funding (non-negotiable for line 2). Those 2 things alone were enough for me not to vote PP, even though I didn't expect much more of Carney than Trudeau 2.0.
This. Homeless tripled in my hometown of Hamilton since pre-covid. Numbers are public. I invite people to visit Central Park in Hamilton. There was no tent city before. And I sympathize heavily, being homeless is a numbers game now, not just an issue of mental health and addiction, at one point vacancy rates for rentals were effectively near 1% in the GTHA.
Can you give any specific reasoning on this, 𝖻̶𝖾̶𝗌̶𝗂̶𝖽̶𝖾̶𝗌̶ you can include Harper's rhetoric, rhetoric that many of us would disagree with. What did Harper actually say or do that you think caused Canada to regress, (even moreso than Trudeau?)
I highly disagree with Harper's admin privatizing things like the CWB and the voting scandals. I never voted for Harper. But in hindsight, Canada had better quality of life, less income and wealth inequality under Harper. You have to be very insulated from working class woes to proudly say Canada was left in better economic shape after Trudeau... Or that the average lower and middle class Canadians were better off or happier under Trudeau.
Being a well-to-do liberal urbanite seems to be a common theme on UrbanToronto. There are genuinely people who grasp at a handful of programs that put 10s if not 100s of dollars into certain demographic's pockets, forgetting how much more expensive everything got.
The underlying economic numbers weren't good, even in 2019; obviously they took a nose dive after covid.
Happiness and wellbeing starts with economics. If you're struggling to make rent and pay bills, it doesn't matter if you are considered diverse in half a dozen ways, or a plain WASP. While I'm sure some wealth redistribution nominally helped, the cost of living crisis enabled by the previous admin erased all the welfare gains provided by their new social programs: erased all the gains and more.
Corporate greed existed before Trudeau, it was not the first order cause of the cost of living crisis worsening after 2015.
Without getting too rhetorical (we've arguably had what some would call 'catch & release' for many decades, including under Harper), you're about to have dozens of people jump to thinking how Doug Ford didn't fund courts, prosecutors, and other stuff enough. Which is true.
But the topic of judicial appointments for the Superior Courts and the existence of three-tier sentencing is under Federal purview. By three-tier I mean 1. non-citizen immigration status, 2. Gladue report, and 3. 'none of the above' i.e. citizens. I'm ambivalent about Gladue, particularly as it pertains to equality under the law. However, IMO, immigration status affecting sentencing certainly warrants reform. Regardless of who started the problems, there was nothing stopping Trudeau from trying to solve the problems. The Feds owed Canadians a duty of care to not let things like that happen, and also this:
Dec 2023, Toronto sex assault case tossed over Ottawa’s failure to appoint Superior Court judges, Toronto Star
After yet another serious criminal case collapsed over the chronic judge shortage in Toronto court, observers in every corner of the legal system tell the Star they’re baffled by a
web.archive.org
^Those two cases are a tiny tip of the iceberg.
Nov 2024, Most criminal cases in Ontario now ending before charges are tested at trial
A panel of judges has overturned a Federal Court ruling that directed the federal government to step up the pace of judicial appointments to address an “untenable” number of vacancies.
www.ctvnews.ca
Justice minister says he's 'proud' of government's record on appointing judges
Please be accurate with this, it's a shared responsibility. This is a tired trope repeated ad nauseam across social media. The Criminal Code is federal, even if most prosecutors are paid by the provinces. Federal prosecutors do exist. See above for judicial appointment issues for provincial Superior and federal courts.
It may not be called 'welfare', but federal EI, OAS, etc... are part of the welfare state. Provincial OW and ODSP are not called 'welfare' either.
I don't think Harper is the same, let alone worse, than PP. Even if PP might've been an improvement over Trudeau in some ways, I didn't support him primarily because of his anti-MAiD views and the possibility of cancelling transit funding (non-negotiable for line 2). Those 2 things alone were enough for me not to vote PP, even though I didn't expect much more of Carney than Trudeau 2.0.
This exactly. Alto would have likely been cancelled. PP also never committed to specific immigration cuts (then again, neither did Carney, but so far, so good enough).
We're free to call PP a grifter, a social conservative, but I rarely hear a well reasoned argument against PP from those that put social policy at the forefront of their voting decision. The chronically online too often conflate American and Canadian politics.
The Overton window in Canada and the USA are not the same.
There is an argument that can be made against PP on social issues, but can we please stop with the fear mongering as if Trump 2.0 was about to hit Canada?
Gay marriage was legalized under Paul Martin through legislation. Harper then rehashed the issue with a nonbinding motion in December 2006, knowing full well he had a minority government, so the result was almost predetermined.
The motion did not pass by a wide margin
It was a performative exercise.
Under a Con majority post 2011, the issue was not brought up again.
Jan 2012, Harper says he has no intention of reopening debate on same-sex marriage
Tory Leader has 'no intention of opening up those issues' since they're not in party platform
web.archive.org
Abortion is legal in Canada because there is no legislation that makes it illegal since it was de jure legalized through R. v. Morgentaler in 1988. To make it illegal, much less criminal again would require new legislation, e.g. an amendment to the Criminal Code. In practice, there is little the Feds can do besides criminalize, because healthcare is under provincial purview, and abortion is healthcare...
This legal framework is not the same as the United States.
I can confidently say that abortions being restricted in Canada like say, Texas, will not happen any time soon.
Canadian voters have only gotten more progressive on social issues since 2015, the notion that a sleeper cell Reform party of evangelicals could be on the rise again through a career politician like PP is nothing but baseless fear mongering in 2026.
This. Homeless tripled in my hometown of Hamilton since pre-covid. Numbers are public. I invite people to visit Central Park in Hamilton. There was no tent city before. And I sympathize heavily, being homeless is a numbers game now, not just an issue of mental health and addiction, at one point vacancy rates for rentals were effectively near 1% in the GTHA.
Number of individuals experiencing homelessness in Hamilton and their length of homelessness.
open.hamilton.ca
Can you give any specific reasoning on this, 𝖻̶𝖾̶𝗌̶𝗂̶𝖽̶𝖾̶𝗌̶ you can include Harper's rhetoric, which many of us would disagree with. What did Harper actually say or do that you think caused Canada to regress, (even moreso than Trudeau?)
I highly disagree with Harper's admin privatizing things like the CWB and the voting scandals. I never voted for Harper. But in hindsight, Canada had better quality of life, less income and wealth inequality under Harper. You have to be very insulated from working class woes to proudly say Canada was left in better economic shape after Trudeau... Or that the average lower and middle class Canadians were better off under Trudeau.
Being a well-to-do liberal urbanite seems to be a common theme on UrbanToronto. There are genuinely people who grasp at a handful of programs that put 10s if not 100s of dollars into certain demographic's pockets, forgetting how much more expensive everything got.
The underlying economic numbers weren't good, even in 2019; obviously they took a nose dive after covid.
Happiness starts with economics. If you're struggling to make rent and pay bills, it doesn't matter if you are considered diverse in half a dozen ways, or a plain WASP. While I'm sure some wealth redistribution nominally helped, the cost of living crisis enabled by the previous admin erased all the welfare gains provided by their new social programs: erased all the gains and more.
Corporate greed existed before Trudeau, it was not the first order cause of the cost of living crisis worsening after 2015.
Without getting too rhetorical (we've arguably had what some would call 'catch & release' for many decades, including under Harper), you're about to have dozens of people jump to thinking how Doug Ford didn't fund courts, prosecutors, and other stuff enough. Which is true.
But the topic of judicial appointments for the Superior Courts and the existence of three-tier sentencing is under Federal purview. By three-tier I mean 1. non-citizen immigration status, 2. Gladue report, and 3. 'none of the above' i.e. citizens. I'm ambivalent about Gladue, particularly as it pertains to equality under the law. However, IMO, immigration status affecting sentencing certainly warrants reform. Regardless of who started the problems, there was nothing stopping Trudeau from trying to solve the problems. The Feds owed Canadians a duty of care to not let things like that happen, and also this:
Dec 2023, Toronto sex assault case tossed over Ottawa’s failure to appoint Superior Court judges, Toronto Star
After yet another serious criminal case collapsed over the chronic judge shortage in Toronto court, observers in every corner of the legal system tell the Star they’re baffled by a
web.archive.org
^Those two cases are a tiny tip of the iceberg.
Nov 2024, Most criminal cases in Ontario now ending before charges are tested at trial
A panel of judges has overturned a Federal Court ruling that directed the federal government to step up the pace of judicial appointments to address an “untenable” number of vacancies.
www.ctvnews.ca
Justice minister says he's 'proud' of government's record on appointing judges
Faster appointment decision being overturned was not unexpected, concerned citizens were throwing everything to see what sticked
Can you give us a source for this? Did poverty rates appreciably decline across the board under Trudeau? Even if we separate pre and post-covid?
Please be accurate with this, it's a shared responsibility. This is a tired trope repeated ad nauseam across social media. Criminal law is federal jurisdiction, even if most prosecutors are paid by the provinces. Federal prosecutors do exist. See above for judicial appointment issues for provincial Superior and federal courts. It may not be called 'welfare', but EI, OAS, etc... are part of the welfare state. OW and ODSP are not called 'welfare' either.
This exactly. Alto would have likely been cancelled. PP also never committed to specific immigration cuts (then again, neither did Carney, but so far, so good enough).
We're free to call PP a grifter, a social conservative, but I rarely hear a well reasoned argument against PP from those that put social policy at the forefront of their voting decision. The chronically online too often conflate American and Canadian politics.
The Overton window in Canada and the USA are not the same.
There is an argument that can be made against PP on social issues, but can we please stop with the fear mongering as if Trump 2.0 was about to hit Canada?
Gay marriage was legalized under Paul Martin through legislation. Harper then rehashed the issue with a nonbinding motion in December 2006, knowing full well he had a minority government, so the result was almost predetermined.
The motion did not pass by a wide margin
It was a performative exercise.
Under a Con majority post 2011, the issue was not brought up again.
Jan 2012, Harper says he has no intention of reopening debate on same-sex marriage
Tory Leader has 'no intention of opening up those issues' since they're not in party platform
web.archive.org
Abortion is legal in Canada because there is no legislation that makes it illegal since it was de jure legalized through R. v. Morgentaler in 1988. To make it illegal, much less criminal again would require new legislation, e.g. an amendment to the Criminal Code. In practice, there is little the Feds can do, because healthcare is under provincial purview, and abortion is healthcare... This legal framework is not the same as the United States.
I can confidently say that abortions being restricted in Canada like say, Texas, will not happen any time soon.
Canadian voters have only gotten more progressive on social issues since 2015, the notion that a sleeper cell Reform party of evangelicals could be on the rise again through a career politician like PP is nothing but baseless fear mongering in 2026.
Am I missing something here? How does McGuinty not wanting to foot the costs associated with Harper's anti-crime legislation have to do with OW/ODSP? (I presume line of thinking leads to D.Ford's not funding OW enough to keep up with living costs?)
---------------------------------
I'm still waiting on any evidence on the claim that poverty rates or poverty-adjacent figures were higher under Harper compared to Trudeau.
Setting aside what many would consider a semantics debate about what constitutes 'social programs' or the welfare state in Ontario or Canada, do you think ODSP or OW can reasonably make up for the gap between legal minimum wage and legal GTHA rent? (Not an illegal basement room) Much less the gap between median wages and median home prices.
A strong welfare state, particularly for an aging population, requires an ever-growing tax base. A government cannot improve the long-term welfare of its people by simply borrowing to increase ODSP or OW.
Sidestepping a bit, but still relevant, interest payments on federal debt has likely exceeded federal healthcare transfers to provinces.
Point is, for fiscal sustainability, every level of government should aim for a balanced or surplus budget, in the long-term. That or we inflate the debt away while running permanent deficits (USA). Otherwise, we at least risk interest payments ballooning, which would be a huge burden on future generations. I exaggerate, but hypothetically doubling OW payments, without anything else changing would be unsustainable.
To get closer to sustainability, from the deficit spending status quo, the economy must grow so that gov. tax revenues can grow on a per-capita basis. If the tax revenues grow enough, the welfare state can sustainably expand. Speaking of which, access to public services was effectively reduced on a per-capita basis because of recent population growth.
Simply jacking up ODSP or OW, even if it's just to account for years of inflation, will not solve the problems leading to people needing welfare in the first place, especially in Ontario (or Canada's case).
Dramatically increasing the size of the welfare state did not solve the problems worsened or created under the Trudeau admin:
Canada is undergoing a welfare-state boom financed by the federal government. Since taking office in 2015, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Liberals have substantially increased major transfers to individuals as well as to provincial and territorial governments. Payments to individuals are to...
policyoptions.irpp.org
Increasing OW is not even in the top 20 of things to address to improve Ontarian's lives IMO.
The most obvious problem that will take decades to unwind is housing. The gap to affordability widened under Trudeau, even pre-covid, because housing completions and starts never kept up with population growth. The housing crisis drags on the economy at both the macro and household level. We should rightfully rag on the province and feds for not doing enough to solve the housing crisis.
Getting back to 2015 for certain things like housing might take a decade or more.
I say all this as someone who strongly supports UBI, in part to cut the bureaucratic overhead of other welfare departments, in part due to the rise of AI. But UBI won't solve things like housing or food inflation.
Ah, another of those degenerated-into-bickering discussions. However, remember that re the PP alternative being framed as "dystopian": in the context of the election, it was really less about him than about the reflected glory of Trump, and PP being fatally framed as more of a likely mirror/lapdog/patsy for Trump's 51st-state rhetoric. Indeed, if it weren't for Trump awakening those misgivings, Canadians were perfectly prepared to give PP a firm mandate, even if it required holding one's nose while doing so.
Likewise, I agree to an extent about "life going on" under Harper. But where *he* choked up was when he and his boys in short pants got a little too cocky and started entertaining Arc-de-Drumpfian schemes like the Mother Canada statue, next to which Justin's "sunny ways" looked like a breath of fresh air...
Ah, another of those degenerated-into-bickering discussions. However, remember that re the PP alternative being framed as "dystopian": in the context of the election, it was really less about him than about the reflected glory of Trump, and PP being fatally framed as more of a likely mirror/lapdog/patsy for Trump's 51st-state rhetoric. Indeed, if it weren't for Trump awakening those misgivings, Canadians were perfectly prepared to give PP a firm mandate, even if it required holding one's nose while doing so.
Likewise, I agree to an extent about "life going on" under Harper. But where *he* choked up was when he and his boys in short pants got a little too cocky and started entertaining Arc-de-Drumpfian schemes like the Mother Canada statue, next to which Justin's "sunny ways" looked like a breath of fresh air...
In a direct address to the nation, Prime Minister Mark Carney has reframed Canada's long-standing relationship with the United States as a 'weakness' that must be urgently corrected under the shadow of the Trump presidency.
www.ctvnews.ca
PM Carney declares U.S. ties now a ‘weakness’ in address to Canadians
With the United States acting more like an economic foe than an ally under the presidency of Donald Trump, Prime Minister Mark Carney said Canada’s former strength, built on our bond with America, has become a “weakness” that must be corrected.
In a pre-recorded address released Sunday morning, Carney said his intention was to talk “directly and regularly” about his plan for Canada and promised he would “never sugarcoat our challenges.”
The main point of this message, according to a source, was that during a time of disruption he wanted a venue where he could talk directly to Canadians, and in an extended format.
The world, he said, has become more “dangerous and divided,” and Canada must re-evaluate its most critical international relationships and undergo a shift in national strategy.
“The U.S. has fundamentally changed its approach to trade, raising its tariffs to levels last seen during the Great Depression,” said Carney in the nearly 10-minute-long address that was recorded in a home in Ottawa. “Many of our former strengths, based on our close ties to America, have become our weaknesses; weaknesses that we must correct.”
Workers in the auto, steel and lumber industries are “under threat” because of U.S. tariffs, he said, and businesses are holding back investments because of the “pall of uncertainty that’s hanging over all of us.”
“The U.S. has changed and we must respond,” said Carney, before launching into his Liberal government’s record and achievements, and invoking the “Canada Strong” plan he announced during the 2025 election campaign; a plan that was meant to Trump-proof the nation.
The new reality
Without naming the opposition Conservatives, Carney seemed to allude to them when he said there are “some who say there’s no need for a comprehensive plan” –- that Canadians should “wait it out” in the hope that U.S. relations will go back to how they were in the “good old days.”
He pointed out that young Canadians have experienced no such good days -- their entire lives having been impacted by the shocks and crises of global wars, financial strife and COVID-19.
He admitted his plans that include building new trade and energy corridors, doubling the size of clean energy capacity and creating “one Canadian economy out of 13” are ambitious. “But in a crisis, fortune favours the bold,” he said.
The prime minister then showed a small statue of Maj.-Gen. Sir Isaac Brock, the British army officer known as the “Hero of Upper Canada” for his role during the War of 1812. He said the statue, a gift from comedian Mike Myers, reminds him “that when we’re united as Canadians, we can withstand anything.”
“Before Canada even existed, it had a shape in Brock’s imagination,” said Carney. “Faced with the threat of an American invasion, Brock built alliances across our land and inspired what would eventually become Canada.”
Carney continued referencing history, saying it was an “ambitious” and “determined” Canada that built big things like the St. Lawrence Seaway, the CN Tower and the Trans-Canada Highway after the Second World War. He said his government is making big structural changes now, too, to “make us stronger at home and less reliant on the United States.”
He closed his message with a sentiment meant to instill confidence, invoking a practice called “forward guidance” that he developed during the financial crisis when he was governor of the Bank of Canada – a practice that involved using “overwhelming force against our problems until they were solved.”
“There’s much forward guidance to be found in our shared history. We will get through this because of who we have always been,” he said. “It’s our country. It’s our future. We are taking back control, to build Canada strong.
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