PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

[Admiral Beez]

One would think after all this time somebody could come up with a way to maintain a valid list of foreign professional institutions that meet our standards.

We have that already for doctors and some other professions from the US, UK, Australia and NZ. My family doctor is from the UK and his medical degree was accepted by Canada and he was practicing as a doctor within weeks of arriving in Canada.

 

[kEiThZ]

There are actually TWO problems for immigrants. Firstly they lack 'Canadian experience" but I think that a far larger problem is that foreign qualifications are NOT always at the same standard as Canadian ones and obtaining licences is costly, time consuming and bureaucratic. I have a friend who had lots of (UK) experience as a pharmacist and, though his training was at least as good there as we have here, he knew nothing about how the health system works (or does not work) here and he DID need to learn that. There are many programs, like https://www.pharmacy.utoronto.ca/programs/international-pharmacy-graduate-program that teach "Canadian Practice' but they are not cheap and have limited intake.

There's differences to be sure. But let's be honest. There's a fair amount of gatekeeping by professional cartels here who simply want to protect their fiefdoms. Forget immigrants from abroad. There's professions and trades that make moving between provinces difficult. Is teaching or plumbing that different between BC and Ontario?

With immigrants themselves, the Canadian experience argument is particularly specious outside sectors that are heavily dependent on government funding and management (like healthcare). Who do you think knows more about the latest building techniques? An engineer who worked in Dubai or one who worked in Toronto? The very fact that so many Canadian companies are uncompetitive internationally tells you what BS this is. And Canadian professions and trades are basically doing the same thing Loblaws and Rogers do to keep out competition by fearmongering about standards.

 

[kEiThZ]

Agreed. What Canada should have is an accreditation review and equivalency certificate issuance process at time of immigrant application, ideally partnered with either Canadian colleges or trade associations. If you’re a doctor or engineer in India, for example, your credentials are reviewed and if deemed equivalent to Canadian standards, your accreditations would be certified by the CMA or CSPE. That’s how it should be done, so that our potential immigrant is neither misled nor see their potential wasted when they come to Canada.

Doctors are among the worst. They don't even bother with equivalency in Ontario. They have quotas that limit how many foreign trained doctors are trained and certified. The College of Physicians isn't even shy about admitting that they seek to limit competitive threats to physicians wages.

When people talk about "standards", I always know it's because they are privileged enough to have a family physician. Ask someone who doesn't have a family doctor at all or is waiting months for treatment or screening whether they really care whether a doctor was ranked just outside the College's quota.

One things schools abroad do well is meeting standards. If there was a standards guide to certify foreign schools, you can bet they'd start pumping out doctors that meet whatever standard we throw at them. The doctors' cartels here know this. That's why they want quotas and not standards. Ask yourself why those Caribbean medical schools can produce doctors who qualify to intern in the US, but those same grads have a hell of a time getting certified in Canada. Or why there are well known medical schools in India that have zero issues producing graduates who pass American and British medical licensing exams, but somehow don't qualify in Canada. Do the Americans and British have substantially lower standards for licensing doctors than we do?

 

[kEiThZ]

One would think after all this time somebody could come up with a way to maintain a valid list of foreign professional institutions that meet our standards. I don't know if it is arrogance or turf protecting that puts our standards on a pedestal over all others. I have two nieces - Canadian born and raised - who received their medical training in Ireland and were lumped into the same pile as somebody from U Chechnya.

There's no incentive to do this. If we did, we'd have to admit that a lot of our claimed superiority is nonsense. And it makes the whole system look shambolic. In a lot of Europe and Asia, you can go to medical school straight from high school. No need to really waste time on an undergraduate degree. Instead of trying to get in to medical school by gaming an undergraduate degree, those students spend their time learning human biology and medicine. Our system which takes 7-8 years minimum to produce a medical resident vs a system which takes 6 years, would be revealed for what it is. And it would undermine a major argument for why we pay for doctors so much: competitive entry and years of education.

And there's basically some version of the above in every certified profession and licensed trade in Canada. The only time you don't see the above is in highly niche fields where training isn't available in Canada. And then all of a sudden we are just fine with global standards.

 

[Admiral Beez]

When people talk about "standards", I always know it's because they are privileged enough to have a family physician.

Those of us who own homes aren't really interested in making housing more affordable, since the campaign pitch of "elect me and I will make your equity decrease by 20% in order to benefit all Canadians". Though I'm not sure how my neighbour not having a doctor follows similar logic, since if you do or do not have a doctor doesn't impact me directly, beyond wasteful healthcare costs when your preventable toe fungus becomes full on flesh eating disease.

 

[Coolibop]

One would think after all this time somebody could come up with a way to maintain a valid list of foreign professional institutions that meet our standards.

They do have a list of sorts... It is not as simple as maintaining said list, but about dealing with a multitude of changes and practices that are taught abroad at all institutions. These aren't static entities...

Maybe we should look at speeding up the process and not focus on waiving requirements... The process (I'm using 6-7 year old data being involved with an application process of filing paperwork needed) is very lengthly. The amount of administrative burden is quite large - most of which is up to the applicant to figure out. Not to mention processing times which are often dependant on one another... If I recall, had to start the entire process a full year and a half before returning to Canada because step 1 takes 6 months and one can't go to step 2 until 1 is done and so on...

I don't know if it is arrogance or turf protecting that puts our standards on a pedestal over all others. I have two nieces - Canadian born and raised - who received their medical training in Ireland and were lumped into the same pile as somebody from U Chechnya.

It's probably standards... With respect, can you easily tell the difference between the two?

From experience, I'd gather that's it's either administrative backlog (more likely given how we run our medical system?), or the difficulty in measuring changes between systems over time.

The CPSO has been tackling reducing these entry barriers as of late (their Dialogue magazine has some interesting data). For example, in some specialties, you used to have to have a full year of supervision by other physician (all paid for by the applicant). That's now waived... Is that good? I don't know.

As with housing, I do worry that quality would suffer because we stress rushing to fill gaps as quickly as possible.

 

[kEiThZ]

As with housing, I do worry that quality would suffer because we stress rushing to fill gaps as quickly as possible.

Beggars can't be choosers. The alternative (waiting lists so long that people die waiting) isn't tenable either.

Once the government changes and the incoming government removes a lot of restrictions on provinces, I expect we'll see substantial pressure on professions like medicine to make licensing much more straightforward. No more gatekeeping just to protect their negotiating power with bureaucracy.

 

[Northern Light]

Beggars can't be choosers. The alternative (waiting lists so long that people die waiting) isn't tenable either.

Once the government changes and the incoming government removes a lot of restrictions on provinces, I expect we'll see substantial pressure on professions like medicine to make licensing much more straightforward. No more gatekeeping just to protect their negotiating power with bureaucracy.

Credential recognition to one side (important issue though it is); a big problem is the lack of residency opportunities for doctors, be they domestically trained or foreign trained. To my understanding that's a straight-up funding question for the provinces.

Likewise, there is a lesser requirement vs residency for those who are/were practicing physicians in other countries, which is the Practical Assessment (generally 12 weeks under supervision, with the supervisor being able to waive the residency requirement at the conclusion of said exercise.)

Ontario had such a program a few years ago, then nixed it, and only just restarted it, but with far fewer opportunities than demand would indicate.

Several other provinces have been doing these (practical assessments) for years now and doing so in relatively higher numbers than Ontario when adjusted for population.

I don't believe the federal government is an obstacle in these cases, its Ontario (and other provinces as applicable) that have chosen not to provide sufficient opportunities for professional accreditation.

*****

Likewise, of course, Ontario has graduated far too few doctors for decades, a decision that goes back to the Rae government in Ontario in the 90s who came to the strange conclusion that graduating more doctors automatically meant higher healthcare costs, so they froze the number of study places; something no subsequent government undid until the last 18 months ( well more spots/schools are approved, but not yet operating) The Harris gov't also deregulated medical school tuition in 1998 sending it skyrocketing and seeing applications from middle-income households drop off markedly.

*****

None of which takes away the legitimate issue that far more medical school credentials should be recognized in full.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Ontario has graduated far too few doctors for decades, a decision that goes back to the Rae government in Ontario in the 90s who came to the strange conclusion that graduating more doctors automatically meant higher healthcare costs, so they froze the number of study places; something no subsequent government undid until the last 18 months ( well more spots/schools are approved, but not yet operating) The Harris gov't also deregulated medical school tuition in 1998 sending it skyrocketing and seeing applications from middle-income households drop off markedly.

Assuming that no new money is available, surely we could cut spots for liberal arts and divert that money to medical schools? My generously tattooed and pierced barista doesn’t need that four year gender studies degree nor its approximately $44,000 in Ontario government subsidies to do their job. Let’s put our limited education funding where it’s needed.

 

[kEiThZ]

Assuming that no new money is available, surely we could cut spots for liberal arts and divert that money to medical schools? My generously tattooed and pierced barista doesn’t need that four year gender studies degree nor its approximately $44,000 in Ontario government subsidies to do their job. Let’s put our limited education funding where it’s needed.

Where did you read $44 000 in subsidies? That's the amount that international students pay in tuition:

"The choice the government has given institutions is between taking domestic students at $8,000 a head or taking international students at $44,000 a head," said Usher. "Given those incentives, how do we think universities are going to react?"

Ontario's actual subsidy is ~$11k per student:

The report says provinces outside Ontario provide universities an average of $20,772 in funding per full-time-equivalent student. Ontario's annual funding is little more than half of that: $11,471.

Also, part of the reason universities and colleges are struggling financially is because the government keeps insisting on producing more STEM graduates and STEM programs are expensive.

The problem is starting to be less about Humanities and Social Sciences and increasingly overproduction of business majors. But if we're being honest, we need less university graduates and more college graduates in general. The idea that university is all about enlightenment is very romantic. But romance doesn't pay the bills for most of these students. And as taxpayers we aren't subsidizing post-secondary for enlightenment. We're doing it to make us economically competitive and hopefully give these young people good job prospects. So if these degrees are simply saddling most of these young folks with debt, perhaps it's time to talk about switching support from universities to colleges.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Where did you read $44 000 in subsidies? That's the amount that international students pay in tuition:

Click the link above.

The report says the Ontario government provides universities an average of $11,471 per full-time Canadian resident student per year. Four years gets us to $44k in government subsidies to get our liberal arts student their degree.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Click the link above.

The report says the Ontario government provides universities an average of $11,471 per full-time Canadian resident student per year. Four years gets us to $44k in government subsidies to get our liberal arts student their degree.

Weren't you one of them? And per rata you were probably subsidized more than students nowadays.

The issue isn't so much so the spread - but whether we are requiring university degrees for jobs that doesn't/shouldn't require it. AI is probably going to squeeze it on the other side though. If you have been paying attention - what used to be areas of studies guaranteed for jobs (e.g. Comp Sci) is no longer the case - and AI will make it that much worse.

AoD

 

[lenaitch]

We have that already for doctors and some other professions from the US, UK, Australia and NZ. My family doctor is from the UK and his medical degree was accepted by Canada and he was practicing as a doctor within weeks of arriving in Canada.

Interesting. It may be that both were fresh out of university and had to plug themselves into the foreign trained intern/residency stream.

if you do or do not have a doctor doesn't impact me directly

Until you need to go to Emerg and the place is plugged with people without doctors and can't access a walk-in clinic. Sure they triage but the intake still has an impact on wait times.

With respect, can you easily tell the difference between the two?

No clue - I just pulled those names out of the air, but issue isn't whether I can tell the difference in quality graduates. There still needs to be a process to determine a doctor, engineer, etc. is up to whatever benchmark we set, and that should be foreshortened to the extent possible.

If nothing else, language and literacy skills in one of our official languages to extend needed to safely practice.

I'm not convinced that if money suddenly ceased to be an issue, the regulatory bodies would be opening their valves much wider.

 

[kEiThZ]

Click the link above.

The report says the Ontario government provides universities an average of $11,471 per full-time Canadian resident student per year. Four years gets us to $44k in government subsidies to get our liberal arts student their degree.

That would be almost $46k in subsidies. Not $44k. But also, that's an average per student. Arts students getting 15 hrs of class per week in lectures halls that fit hundreds of students are cheap compared to engineering students who have lots of lectures and plenty of lab requirements. My undergrad aerodynamics course made use of a supersonic wind tunnel in the basement of then Ryerson University. My graduate degree made use of wind tunnels, 3D printers and a test site regularly used by NASA and Space X. These kinds of facilities are a far cry from the cost of guest delivering lectures. Most of that could even move online.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Weren't you one of them? And per rata you were probably subsidized more than students nowadays.

Yes, and yes. But times change, the country's productivity has collapsed since my days in the early 1990s. The benefits that Boomers and in a lesser degree us Gen-X had, including the accessibility of often employment-unnecessary post-secondary degrees is, like much of Canada's economy and standard of living relative to other Western nations, on the decline. It's unfair, and my own adult children are inheriting a country that has been in decline and robbed by their predecessors for decades. But unless we either decrease the cost or increase the tax revenue going to non-strategic post-secondary education then we're going to have to make some tough decisions. We have a limited budget of tax revenue and are in desperate need of doctors, nurses and other STEM fields - so that's where the money needs to go.