Plans to fill in Allen Road

[Northern Light]

While generally I support the removal of highways. I'm more in favour of reconfiguring the expressway at Eglinton. Yonge and Eglinton is a major business district and I think it's smart to maintain highway access.

I'm not sure I agree they have highway access. I don't know what origin/destination surveys show for users of Allen Road, but I'd be surprised if a large amount of that traffic was bound for Y-E in the AM Peak.

Suffice to say Allen Road is 3km from Yonge and Eglinton; and the City is in the process of narrowing Eglinton Avenue to support Cycle Tracks and wide sidewalks, reducing current throughput for cars.

But I think we could do this while also improving the pedestrian experience - it would just take some expropriation.

Example: raising Eglinton at Allen Road by ~3m to allow off ramps to pass under Eglinton and into the middle lane where a traffic signal would be placed. Not only would pedestrian conflict points be reduced, but phased traffic signals could also improve traffic flows. Expropriated lands could then be regraded and developed with increased density.

Assuming the origin/destination surveys supported the notion that a material amount of Allen Road traffic were bound for Yonge-Eglinton.........what you propose has 2 overt issues to me.

The first, I have noted above, that the City is actually reducing the car-carrying capacity of Eglinton in favour of cycletracks and wider sidewalks.

The second is the cost and political issue of the expropriation you're identifying.

A quick glance suggests to me that you would be making the 13 Division police parking lot completely inaccessible (if the road is 3M above that grade level.); a replacement building will start at 50M and could be double that.
It might also impair access to Winnett Avenue. Depending on the turning radii of the ramp (which would be over the Crosstown tunnel), there's no chance that's under a 6% grade and I think its likely higher.
The ramp portal would likely eat into and impair access to Ben Nobleman Park as well.
That's just the off ramp; and only at Eglinton. That's no small matter.

Oh, and 3M is not sufficient to support truck clearance given that you're to have a deck under that raised road w/the ramp passing underneath. I think you'd need just about 4M for clearance, then another 1M on top for the road deck above.
Since pedestrians and cyclists would likewise have to pass over the ramp, you're now putting them on a 10%+ grade which is in excess of current standards for those with Wheelchairs, where every effort is made to maintain a 5% or less grade.

Never mind the poor merchants on this section of Eglinton that have endured years of construction and will lack enthusiasm for more.

***

In the above scenario, I'm not sure you really make pedestrian/cycling life much more comfortable at the interchanges; the problem of excess traffic entering too small a road to support it remains, and it doesn't address reconnecting neighbourhoods, or The Beltline, creating new parks or housing.

 

[Jaye101]

I'm not sure I agree they have highway access. I don't know what origin/destination surveys show for users of Allen Road, but I'd be surprised if a large amount of that traffic was bound for Y-E in the AM Peak.

Suffice to say Allen Road is 3km from Yonge and Eglinton; and the City is in the process of narrowing Eglinton Avenue to support Cycle Tracks and wide sidewalks, reducing current throughput for cars.



Assuming the origin/destination surveys supported the notion that a material amount of Allen Road traffic were bound for Yonge-Eglinton.........what you propose has 2 overt issues to me.

The first, I have noted above, that the City is actually reducing the car-carrying capacity of Eglinton in favour of cycletracks and wider sidewalks.

The second is the cost and political issue of the expropriation you're identifying.

A quick glance suggests to me that you would be making the 13 Division police parking lot completely inaccessible (if the road is 3M above that grade level.); a replacement building will start at 50M and could be double that.
It might also impair access to Winnett Avenue. Depending on the turning radii of the ramp (which would be over the Crosstown tunnel), there's no chance that's under a 6% grade and I think its likely higher.
The ramp portal would likely eat into and impair access to Ben Nobleman Park as well.
That's just the off ramp; and only at Eglinton. That's no small matter.

Oh, and 3M is not sufficient to support truck clearance given that you're to have a deck under that raised road w/the ramp passing underneath. I think you'd need just about 4M for clearance, then another 1M on top for the road deck above.
Since pedestrians and cyclists would likewise have to pass over the ramp, you're now putting them on a 10%+ grade which is in excess of current standards for those with Wheelchairs, where every effort is made to maintain a 5% or less grade.

Never mind the poor merchants on this section of Eglinton that have endured years of construction and will lack enthusiasm for more.

***

In the above scenario, I'm not sure you really make pedestrian/cycling life much more comfortable at the interchanges; the problem of excess traffic entering too small a road to support it remains, and it doesn't address reconnecting neighbourhoods, or The Beltline, creating new parks or housing.

I think it's likely considering how much employment is at Yonge and Eglinton, that Allen Road is a major link considering the proximity and the vital connection to the 401.

I don't think this is necessarily in conflict of the proposed uses on Eglinton, we have to remember in this scenario we're not actually increasing the number of traffic lanes but rather creating a more efficient interchange with reduced pedestrian conflicts. We can do both. And with timed lights along Eglinton East and West of the interchange, I think it would prove a much needed improvement by all measures.

But I'm no engineer.

 

[Tobi]

Don't want to beat a dead dog but what I think would be the best solution is to tunnel the Allen from Eglinton to Rosedale Valley road and expand that road OR perhaps to Bayview around where the DVP connection is. It should solve the problem of the abrupt end at Eglinton, take some traffic off Eglinton as well and it actually leads somewhere that has good connections with the downtown core in multiple directions.

 

[CapitalSeven]

So a three-mile tunnel on top of the subway line then under several dozen multi-million-dollar houses and across another subway tunnel, in order to turn this

into more of this:

I'm not sure that's going to get much support.

 

[Tobi]

So a three-mile tunnel on top of the subway line then under several dozen multi-million-dollar houses and across another subway tunnel, in order to turn this
View attachment 454216
into more of this:
View attachment 454217
I'm not sure that's going to get much support.

I certainly agree it's not the most aesthetically pleasing or environmentally friendly but it's the lesser of all evils to make something out of an already tragic situation.

 

[Northern Light]

Don't want to beat a dead dog but what I think would be the best solution is to tunnel the Allen from Eglinton to Rosedale Valley road and expand that road OR perhaps to Bayview around where the DVP connection is. It should solve the problem of the abrupt end at Eglinton, take some traffic off Eglinton as well and it actually leads somewhere that has good connections with the downtown core in multiple directions.

1) Irrespective of any merits, there is exactly zero chance of this happening. Its not on anyone's radar, even as a fantasy, and its ghastly expensive and would prove hugely unpopular.

2) How are you getting to Rosedale Valley Road? If you're intent on following the Spadina Line for the first part, you'd have to excavate almost all of Cedarvale Park and the Nordheimer Ravine.

You might think you can just tunnel above the subway, but you can't........Castlefrank Brook is a very large pipe/tunnel of its own over the tracks, its carries a significant volume of water.

 

[lenaitch]

Ask Boston how well large scale tunneling went.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ask Boston how well large scale tunneling went.

The Big Dig: Learning from a Mega Project ​

From link.

Larger than the Panama Canal, the Hoover Dam, and the Alaska Pipeline projects, it was built through the heart of one of the nation’s oldest cities. Its list of engineering firsts include the deepest underwater connection and the largest slurry-wall application in North America, unprecedented ground freezing, extensive deep-soil mixing programs to stabilize Boston’s soils, the world’s widest cable-stayed bridge, and the largest tunnel-ventilation system in the world.

The Big Dig is also famous for cost increases. Its initial estimated cost was $2.56 billion. Estimates increased to $7.74 billion in 1992, to $10.4 billion in 1994, and, finally, $14.8 billion in 2007—more than five times the original estimate. The reported reasons for the cost escalation included inflation, the failure to assess unknown subsurface conditions, environmental and mitigation costs, and expanded scope. Mitigation alone required 1,500 unanticipated, separate agreements.

The Big Dig was led by Bechtel/Parsons Brinckerhoff, one of the largest and most experienced teams in infrastructure design and construction. Extensive environmental feasibility studies, risk assessments, and other documentation were completed prior to the project’s start. Nonetheless, costs increased across all contracts throughout the project’s life cycle despite enormous efforts to transfer, mitigate, or avoid risk and contain costs.

In other words, things can go dramatically wrong despite the best efforts. Few infrastructure projects have used as many innovative tools and programs to control project risk and cost as the Big Dig. These included an owner-controlled insurance program that saved $500 million by providing group coverage for contractors, subcontractors, and designers and an unprecedented safety program; a cost-containment program that saved $1.2 billion; an integrated audit program that identified and mitigated existing and potential overruns and delays; a labor agreement that established a no-strike, no-slowdown guarantee for the life of the project; a quality-assurance program that was recognized by the Federal Highway Administration as one of five noteworthy accomplishments; and a dispute-resolution process that avoided extensive litigation costs.

 

[north-of-anything]

There are two big reasons why I don't see Allen Road being extended south: Ben Nobleman Park, and the Division 13 police station. I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but the City of Toronto bought those little parcels of land specifically to prevent the completion of the Spadina Expressway.

The easiest solution, in my mind, is to downgrade Allen Road to a Black Creek Drive-style arterial between Eglinton and just south of Lawrence, as well as north of where the southbound tracks cross over Line 1. This will unlock some real estate and slow traffic in the area, without having to rebuild the 401 interchanges with Dufferin or Bathurst into full-access interchanges.

"But what about all that vehicular traffic? Where is it going to go?" I don't care. Build a parking garage at Lawrence West if you must.

 

[Tobi]

There are two big reasons why I don't see Allen Road being extended south: Ben Nobleman Park, and the Division 13 police station. I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but the City of Toronto bought those little parcels of land specifically to prevent the completion of the Spadina Expressway.

The easiest solution, in my mind, is to downgrade Allen Road to a Black Creek Drive-style arterial between Eglinton and just south of Lawrence, as well as north of where the southbound tracks cross over Line 1. This will unlock some real estate and slow traffic in the area, without having to rebuild the 401 interchanges with Dufferin or Bathurst into full-access interchanges.

"But what about all that vehicular traffic? Where is it going to go?" I don't care. Build a parking garage at Lawrence West if you must.

Toronto unfortunately does not have the best subway network, even with the street cars and buses it is still subpar. Maybe because I lived on London for some years but comparing it to what we have here. There are so many people that do not live/work close to a subway line, a commute that should take 15 minutes then takes an hour. For what it is now, the fastest way to commute is still using a vehicle.

2) How are you getting to Rosedale Valley Road? If you're intent on following the Spadina Line for the first part, you'd have to excavate almost all of Cedarvale Park and the Nordheimer Ravine.

You might think you can just tunnel above the subway, but you can't........Castlefrank Brook is a very large pipe/tunnel of its own over the tracks, its carries a significant volume of water.

My thoughts were yes to follow the Spadina line for the first part but I did not know of the Castlefrank Brook pipe. But the city can if they want to find a way around that. They would if they had a big subway line project that would generate revenue. I guess a highway will be unpopular for the fact that it cannot fund itself even though it will benefit a large number of commuters.

Also parallel roads to the Allen not only move at 50km/h, they also have a million traffic lights that double the commute time to get the 401 from central Toronto.

 

[Undead]

The point is to reduce car dependency through better transit and built form; not encouraging it with more roads, especially with vastly expensive proposals such as this one. It's a complete nonstarter.

For the billions this project would require, we could rebuild one of the parallel streets with BRT/LRT and improved ped/cyclist safety. Then we could upzone the area so that more people could live within walking distance of transit.

 

[dkt]

Allen Road's current utility as a transportation corridor is undeniable, but it would be unsustainable and irresponsible to keep the current disastrous connection with Eglinton West with its impact on businesses and residential neighbourhoods in the area.

The solution to me is simple: just before the intersection with Eglinton, excavate a large pit under the subway tracks, maybe 50 metres deep:

This way, vehicles coming from the 401 will fall into the pit rather than exiting onto Eglinton.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The berm for the old Beltline Railway crossed the Spadina ditch. It was removed to make way for Allen Road, leaving a detour and disconnect for the Beltline Trail, between Aldburn Road and Elm Ridge Drive.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The solution to me is simple: just before the intersection with Eglinton, excavate a large pit under the subway tracks, maybe 50 metres deep:


This way, vehicles coming from the 401 will fall into the pit rather than exiting onto Eglinton.

Funniest post I've seen in months.

Can we put another here?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Funniest post I've seen in months.

Can we put another here?

View attachment 455124

great Idea, however I suggest moving it to the north side of Queens Park which is where DF drive his Escalade to park.