Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[diminutive]

Very good points. I can see Air Canada offering service from Hamilton to major Canadian destinations (Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Vancouver, Halifax), as well as a few major US hubs (Chicago, LaGuardia, Boston, Atlanta) so that passengers can get pretty much anywhere in North America with only 1 transfer and without having to go through Pearson.

That just doesn't seem likely.

First, that would require very frequent trips on each spoke to minimize layover times. I doubt economics would be kind to more than two or three flights per day on any of those routes except for maybe Montreal and Ottawa.

Second, US pre clearance issues. It'd be expensive for a smaller airport to carry the costs of pre-clearance. Once passengers from those airports have pre-cleared customs they may as well travel to the US hubs directly.

Third, why would an airline duplicate its largest hub in the same city? AC would be much better off switching to larger planes with lower costs, which is basically what it's doing with the new 737MAXs. AC's invested lots into its Pearson operations and I can't see them poaching from that. Ditto WJ. You'd really need a third major carrier to want to spearhead a new hub.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

That just doesn't seem likely.

First, that would require very frequent trips on each spoke to minimize layover times. I doubt economics would be kind to more than two or three flights per day on any of those routes except for maybe Montreal and Ottawa.

Second, US pre clearance issues. It'd be expensive for a smaller airport to carry the costs of pre-clearance. Once passengers from those airports have pre-cleared customs they may as well travel to the US hubs directly.

Third, why would an airline duplicate its largest hub in the same city? AC would be much better off switching to larger planes with lower costs, which is basically what it's doing with the new 737MAXs. AC's invested lots into its Pearson operations and I can't see them poaching from that. Ditto WJ. You'd really need a third major carrier to want to spearhead a new hub.

Can you please cc Transport Canada on this argument?

I'm not 100% convinced that a secondary hub won't become established, but I sure as hell know that any established airline is more likely to do so at Hamilton than the hypothetical Pickering monstrosity.

 

[TOareaFan]

That just doesn't seem likely.

First, that would require very frequent trips on each spoke to minimize layover times. I doubt economics would be kind to more than two or three flights per day on any of those routes except for maybe Montreal and Ottawa.

Second, US pre clearance issues. It'd be expensive for a smaller airport to carry the costs of pre-clearance. Once passengers from those airports have pre-cleared customs they may as well travel to the US hubs directly.

Third, why would an airline duplicate its largest hub in the same city? AC would be much better off switching to larger planes with lower costs, which is basically what it's doing with the new 737MAXs. AC's invested lots into its Pearson operations and I can't see them poaching from that. Ditto WJ. You'd really need a third major carrier to want to spearhead a new hub.

Basically why I thought they might limit their growth in Hamilton to building on the Hamilton - Calgary Rouge flight by adding other destinations for rouge and just shifting the current YTZ fleet of AC Express to Hamilton and offering Hamilton Ottawa/Montreal flights on an alternating bi-hourly basis.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Turns out that bolded part of my post was wrong......Air Canada recently announced that they will commence service between Hamilton and Calgary (using Rouge) in June. While a discount carrier, Rouge is still a scheduled airline (as opposed to a Charter) so this is opposite to what I was saying back then.

Also, that new discount carrier based in Vancouver (Jetlines) announced recently that if it gets off the ground and expands beyond its starting point of 2 planes to its full compliment of 16 (I think) it will have hubs in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Hamilton.

We may get to see sooner rather than later if Hamilton can prove itself as the GTHA's "2nd airport"

Interesting. I've always felt that Rouge was positioned as a vacation (charter?) service. Winters served Caribbean destinations and Summers served European destinations, with a few US vacation destinations (Vegas). Didn't expect them to serve the domestic market and I wonder what the impact would be to the main Air Canada business.

 

[chriskayTO]

Interesting. I've always felt that Rouge was positioned as a vacation (charter?) service. Winters served Caribbean destinations and Summers served European destinations, with a few US vacation destinations (Vegas). Didn't expect them to serve the domestic market and I wonder what the impact would be to the main Air Canada business.

Not exactly - the whole point of Rouge is to fly planes at less cost to AC - this is by offering a slimmer service with lower paid crew, mostly. The aim is to target routes that don't have much business travel - this is why you now see some mainline service switched from AC to Rouge, i.e. Toronto and Vancouver to Vegas, Florida, California -- all places that have customers more focused on price point.

 

[moon2n]

is there a report of the airport's influence in details to the surrounding residences ?

 

[jcam]

Last report by GTAA on the region's capacity also indicated more growth at Kitchener/Waterloo, with it and Hamilton growing to be about the same size.

That's only a short spur off the GO corridor that would be home to any London HSR.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I talked to a source at Canadian Pacific this past weekend, and he told me that Metrolinx has apparently acquired a portion of their Toronto Yard in Scarborough. He says it was apparently related to their plans for a rail link to the Pickering airport, although I would also believe it is synergistic with providing GO service. Georgetown South 2.0.

He said it was for the 'A & B' portion of the yard. I didn't get to ask for more details on that, we got interrupted. Any UT'ers know where to sleuth in railfan forums about this?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Scarborough Yard is a pretty big yard. This could also be related to expanded (read RER) GO services with this yard serving the trains in the east.

 

[gweed123]

I talked to a source at Canadian Pacific this past weekend, and he told me that Metrolinx has apparently acquired a portion of their Toronto Yard in Scarborough. He says it was apparently related to their plans for a rail link to the Pickering airport, although I would also believe it is synergistic with providing GO service. Georgetown South 2.0.

He said it was for the 'A & B' portion of the yard. I didn't get to ask for more details on that, we got interrupted. Any UT'ers know where to sleuth in railfan forums about this?

That's very interesting indeed. There's a CP line that goes very close to, if not directly through, the Pickering lands. Do you know if this section was the part of the yard that leads to the southernmost line eastbound (CP Belleville Sub I believe), or the northernmost line? The southernmost goes through Seaton and eventually cuts through Downtown Oshawa, while the northernmost goes near the eastern edge or Cornell, through the Pickering Lands, and eventually on to Peterborough. Which portion of the yard they bought could provide a hint as to what type of service this purchase is for.

Also wondering if Metrolinx would be planning on building a wye at the Stouffville line, or if they intend to basically create a Midtown line.

Scarborough Yard is a pretty big yard. This could also be related to expanded (read RER) GO services with this yard serving the trains in the east.

Without a wye connecting to the Stouffville line, there isn't much use to having part of that yard. If they were to use the Belleville Sub for GO service, the next connection to any current GO service would be near Oshawa, for which a connection is already being planned as part of the subsequent phase of the new Whitby Yard & Lakeshore East extension (Lakeshore East being Phase II, with the yard being built now).

 

[nfitz]

Also wondering if Metrolinx would be planning on building a wye at the Stouffville line, or if they intend to basically create a Midtown line.

I doubt there's any plans ... surely this is just Metrolinx purchasing something that's available to protect future options. The same way VIA Rail has been buying up stuff for 30 years or so ... with no real plans to do anything.

 

[gweed123]

I doubt there's any plans ... surely this is just Metrolinx purchasing something that's available to protect future options. The same way VIA Rail has been buying up stuff for 30 years or so ... with no real plans to do anything.

If that's the case, surely there are many other projects/sections of track that would give more immediate benefits. Unless they got a hell of a deal that wasn't going to come around again for a long time.

 

[nfitz]

If that's the case, surely there are many other projects/sections of track that would give more immediate benefits. Unless they got a hell of a deal that wasn't going to come around again for a long time.

I'd guess the latter ... presumably if Metrolinx didn't take up option, it would be covered in houses.

 

[mdrejhon]

If that's the case, surely there are many other projects/sections of track that would give more immediate benefits. Unless they got a hell of a deal that wasn't going to come around again for a long time.

Metrolinx's been grabbing any track that's sold to them for reasonable prices. Like the abandoned Don Branch, which doesn't currently have plans, nor will for a long time. Anywhere they can get a potential new useful corridor for reasonably cheap, they're nowadays buying them up to protect for future options -- even 10 or 20 years out to the future.

 

[innsertnamehere]

metrolinx, like MTO, purchases lands with no immediate plans all the time. They have also purchased the Canpa subdivision, lands for stations on the Bowmanville extension, etc.

MTO does similar things, buying up property for a plan they don't intend to follow through on for another 30 years. They have a new policy of purchasing any property that goes up for sale fronting directly onto highway 11, for example, to protect for its long term upgrade, despite it being 30 years off.