Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[anb]

^ Hamilton has its own airport, and people still choose to go to pearson because of the major airlines and the convenience of having 24 hr transit and rideshare to there. The mistake that they made is not expanding further so it could handle the capacity of the majors, and the attraction of actually having people choosing this airport (right now, the airport is located kms away from the downtown, in complete farm lands, on a 2 lane highway). I would also prefer an expansion of this airport, rather than forgetting it and building a whole new airport and its not like Hamilton isn't a populous mid tier city already and it could also attract people from KW/Cambridge/Guelph/Grimsby/etc.

Pickering airport can always be built at a later date when we really need it and when Durham matches or surpasses the population of the Halton/Hamilton Region

 

[micheal_can]

^ Hamilton has its own airport, and people still choose to go to pearson because of the major airlines and the convenience of having 24 hr transit and rideshare to there. The mistake that they made is not expanding further so it could handle the capacity of the majors, and the attraction of actually having people choosing this airport (right now, the airport is located kms away from the downtown, in complete farm lands, on a 2 lane highway). I would also prefer an expansion of this airport, rather than forgetting it and building a whole new airport and its not like Hamilton isn't a populous mid tier city already and it could also attract people from KW/Cambridge/Guelph/Grimsby/etc.

Pickering airport can always be built at a later date when we really need it and when Durham matches or surpasses the population of the Halton/Hamilton Region

We know the failings of Hamilton and others. It seems odd to waste billions on a new airport that needs all of that, when you have ones that could use that right now, and that would add traffic to them, and might ease the congestion at Pearson.

 

[kEiThZ]

just remember that I am going out of my way to include this odd collection of souls in an important discussion.

From the individual who blocked me early on simply for disagreeing with his orthodoxy on Pickering. He couldn't respond to my points.

It's funny how he doesn't block people who know less about aviation.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hamilton has its own airport, and people still choose to go to pearson because of the major airlines and the convenience of having 24 hr transit and rideshare to there.

This is exactly what would happen to a Pickering airport. If they can't convince any majors to move, most Durham and Oshawa residents would still be using Pearson.

And if they ever built Pickering? Shortly after that we'd be hearing calls for tax breaks or government support or legislation to force some carriers to move. What airline in their right mind would want to split operations in the GTA or move to a location with a smaller catchment and substantially worse access without coercion or substantial inducements?

The mistake that they made is not expanding further so it could handle the capacity of the majors, and the attraction of actually having people choosing this airport (right now, the airport is located kms away from the downtown, in complete farm lands, on a 2 lane highway).

They don't have the capital to expand. This is how business cases work. Exactly the problem that any Pickering airport has.

 

[gweed123]

They don't have the capital to expand. This is how business cases work. Exactly the problem that any Pickering airport has.

The federal or private investment that would be required in order to get Hamilton to the level where it would be a viable relief option for Pearson is significantly lower than the investment that would be required to get Pickering to that level. That difference is due in no small part to the fact that Hamilton already has an airport.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Hamilton suffers a problem of geography. For much of what would be in it's catchment area Pearson is just accessible, if not easier to get to. For illustration, Hamiltion Centre station to Munro airport is 20 minutes while to Pearson it's 38 mins. So for anyone East of the Bay (Burlington, Oakville, etc) Pearson would still be the preferred airport given greater selection of airlines/flights/destinations.

Hamilton also competes with two other airports in the Southwestern Ontario region (London, and Waterloo), where if combined the three airports would be able to provide a viable alternative to Pearson. However each likely has a valid reason for wanting to maintain their airport in town. London is the largest municipality in Ontario not directly connected to the Greater Toronto or Greater Ottawa areas. Hamilton has the proximity to the GTA for providing relief Pearson. And Waterloo has all the IT businesses.

The ideal, probably, is to shut Waterloo, consolidate flights, and improve access to Hamilton. In London it may be an opportunity for GO bus service from the outlying areas to the airport to make it more accessible to the SW Ontario region.

 

[gweed123]

Hamilton suffers a problem of geography. For much of what would be in it's catchment area Pearson is just accessible, if not easier to get to. For illustration, Hamiltion Centre station to Munro airport is 20 minutes while to Pearson it's 38 mins. So for anyone East of the Bay (Burlington, Oakville, etc) Pearson would still be the preferred airport given greater selection of airlines/flights/destinations.

Hamilton also competes with two other airports in the Southwestern Ontario region (London, and Waterloo), where if combined the three airports would be able to provide a viable alternative to Pearson. However each likely has a valid reason for wanting to maintain their airport in town. London is the largest municipality in Ontario not directly connected to the Greater Toronto or Greater Ottawa areas. Hamilton has the proximity to the GTA for providing relief Pearson. And Waterloo has all the IT businesses.

The ideal, probably, is to shut Waterloo, consolidate flights, and improve access to Hamilton. In London it may be an opportunity for GO bus service from the outlying areas to the airport to make it more accessible to the SW Ontario region.

The geography point is certainly a valid one, but I think when looking at the 'discount' flight market that geography can become a bit distorted. How many people from the GTHA fly out of Buffalo instead because it will save them a couple hundred bucks? Buffalo is much further outside the catchment area of the GTHA than Hamilton is, yet a fair percentage of Buffalo's traffic (pre-COVID, that is) is Canadian.

Access to Hamilton Munro can certainly be improved. In terms of low-cost infrastructure-wise, a GO bus route that runs from Aldershot to YHM would be useful. If that alone wouldn't have enough ridership to make it viable, make it a stop along a Caledonia-YHM-Aldershot route.

 

[WislaHD]

The three levels of government need to step up and invest in Hamilton period, for the sake of the Canadian economy.

In addition to the downtown LRT, there also needs to be an LRT running from West Harbour GO, up the mountain, and all the way to the airport.

 

[kEiThZ]

The ideal, probably, is to shut Waterloo, consolidate flights, and improve access to Hamilton.

Poor idea. Traffic in Waterloo is GA. Not much commercial traffic. Consolidating that traffic at Hamilton would make that airport busier, without increasing the passenger count. Leave Waterloo as is. Bolster the public transport links to Hamilton. Invest a bit in the infrastructure (like the fuel line that Mark Brooks whines about). And YHM will have the numbers in no time.

The fundamental problem for any Pickering proposal is that increasingly it looks like an effort to split Pearson's catchment than build a facility to serve Durham. I'd argue that any airport for Durham needs to be north or east of Oshawa. I'd say out to where the 407 and 418 meet. Of course, that would change the proposal completely and make the airport closer in size to Hamilton or London.

 

[gweed123]

The fundamental problem for any Pickering proposal is that increasingly it looks like an effort to split Pearson's catchment than build a facility to serve Durham. I'd argue that any airport for Durham needs to be north or east of Oshawa. I'd say out to where the 407 and 418 meet. Of course, that would change the proposal completely and make the airport closer in size to Hamilton or London.

Sounds a lot like what currently exists in Waterloo actually. GA + a few charters + a few scheduled flights a day is all that is really warranted for Durham at the moment.

 

[kEiThZ]

Sounds a lot like what currently exists in Waterloo actually. GA + a few charters + a few scheduled flights a day is all that is really warranted for Durham at the moment.

Pretty much what they'd end up with. Best case scenario they get domestic flights from Ottawa, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver and Halifax. The US would be a non-starter without preclearance. That won't happen without an American carrier really wanting to fly there. And international flights would be very tough without substantial discounts on landing fees. Once you start digging into the details you get why they think their best shot is stealing traffic from Pearson.

 

[gweed123]

Pretty much what they'd end up with. Best case scenario they get domestic flights from Ottawa, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver and Halifax. The US would be a non-starter without preclearance. That won't happen without an American carrier really wanting to fly there. And international flights would be very tough without substantial discounts on landing fees. Once you start digging into the details you get why they think their best shot is stealing traffic from Pearson.

And even from those few flights, I don't know how appealing flights from Pickering to Ottawa or Montreal would be. Let's review the case of why someone would fly from Ottawa to Toronto:

1) "To go to Toronto." Pickering is even further away from Downtown TO than Pearson is, and lacks (and probably will for a significant period of time) any type of decent transit connection to downtown. Between Porter, VIA, and flights into Pearson, that market is pretty much covered.

2) "To connect to a long-haul international flight." Well, that won't be leaving from Pickering, so that's out. Unless you want to take a $150 cab ride from Pickering to Pearson via the 407 to make that connection.

3) "Because it saves time compared to driving." Does it though? 2 hour wait time + 1 hour flight = 3 hours. Google says it's almost exactly 4 hours to drive from Uplands in Ottawa to the Pickering site, via either the 416+401 or 7+407 (timing is within minutes of each other). Is the extra expense of flying really worth saving that one hour? If the reasoning is "I don't/can't drive", then going from Fallowfield to Oshawa using VIA is also about 4 hours (sometimes under 4).

 

[kEiThZ]

1) "To go to Toronto." Pickering is even further away from Downtown TO than Pearson is, and lacks (and probably will for a significant period of time) any type of decent transit connection to downtown. Between Porter, VIA, and flights into Pearson, that market is pretty much covered.

To be fair, there is a market for travel to/from Durham/Markham/Scarborough/Peterborough/Northumberland to Ottawa and Montreal. It's just that the market for that is probably just 2-4 Q400 runs each to YOW and YUL. No more.

Ironically, for all the talk about fighting Air Canada at Pearson, they'd simply toss a Q400 on a few runs per day to Montreal to feed that hub. Their partner carriers will happily ignore the airport because AC will feed them at YUL. Westjet, likewise is becoming heavily reliant on Delta. And they won't be flying anywhere in the GTA but Pearson. I am not even sure who would fly the YOW-Durham flights with no airline hubbing on either end. Best case scenario would be AC. And they most certainly won't be giving huge discounts over flying out of Pearson.

3) "Because it saves time compared to driving." Does it though? 2 hour wait time + 1 hour flight = 3 hours. Google says it's almost exactly 4 hours to drive from Uplands in Ottawa to the Pickering site, via either the 416+401 or 7+407 (timing is within minutes of each other). Is the extra expense of flying really worth saving that one hour? If the reasoning is "I don't/can't drive", then going from Fallowfield to Oshawa using VIA is also about 4 hours (sometimes under 4).

To be fair you don't need to at the airport 2 hrs prior to a domestic flight. And the counter check-in times can be shorter at smaller airports. Could be as little as 1 hr pre-flight. And the flight times would be shorter with a shorter taxi and shorter distance. Probably closer to 45 mins. But after all that, you're still 20-30 mins from by car or transit from downtown Ottawa or Montreal when you arrive there. So door-to-door is still 2-3 hrs. If VIA puts a station somewhere near Markham or Pickering, you can be in downtown Ottawa in 3.5 hrs from anywhere in Durham. Why bother with airfare, long preboarding wait, and unproductive air travel time? So that effectively makes the business case mostly dependent on flying to Montreal.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Just going drop off some current events that run counter to the wishful thinking crowd that Seems to dominate this forum. ( mostly because everyone else’s got banned? Just a guess).

Transports first phase aviation restart announcement:

Government of Canada releases Canada’s Flight Plan for safe air travel - Canada.ca

While the Government of Canada continues to recommend Canadians avoid non-essential international travel, Canadians need to know that the Government of Canada continues to work with partners to protect public health by implementing measures to reduce the risk of COVID-19 transmission during air...

www.canada.ca

the key players respond:

Air Canada, WestJet, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, and Vancouver Airport Authority Jointly Comment on Transport Canada's Flight Plan for Navigating COVID-19

/CNW Telbec/ - Canada's two largest airlines and two largest airports today welcomed Transport Canada's long-awaited Flight Plan for Navigating COVID-19 as a...

www.newswire.ca

what does it mean? Three guesses:

Toronto’s Pandemic Recovery Will Require New Airport Infrastructure - Friends of Pickering Airport

Print 🖨 PDF 📄 eBook 📱By Mark Brooks Passenger aviation is now in the early stages of restarting from its COVID-19-induced shutdown. As the pandemic continues to turn the world upside down, airports and airlines are grappling with the new normal. How can they safely provide critical...

pickeringairport.org

if you would like additional context on the alternative to a private money investment in Pickering, the privatization of our existing airports, see the history lesson in this Saturdays Toronto Star.

this will be an election issue, should be fun!

 

[micheal_can]

Just going drop off some current events that run counter to the wishful thinking crowd that Seems to dominate this forum. ( mostly because everyone else’s got banned? Just a guess).

Transports first phase aviation restart announcement:

Government of Canada releases Canada’s Flight Plan for safe air travel - Canada.ca

While the Government of Canada continues to recommend Canadians avoid non-essential international travel, Canadians need to know that the Government of Canada continues to work with partners to protect public health by implementing measures to reduce the risk of COVID-19 transmission during air...

www.canada.ca

the key players respond:

Air Canada, WestJet, Greater Toronto Airports Authority, and Vancouver Airport Authority Jointly Comment on Transport Canada's Flight Plan for Navigating COVID-19

/CNW Telbec/ - Canada's two largest airlines and two largest airports today welcomed Transport Canada's long-awaited Flight Plan for Navigating COVID-19 as a...

www.newswire.ca

what does it mean? Three guesses:

Toronto’s Pandemic Recovery Will Require New Airport Infrastructure - Friends of Pickering Airport

Print 🖨 PDF 📄 eBook 📱By Mark Brooks Passenger aviation is now in the early stages of restarting from its COVID-19-induced shutdown. As the pandemic continues to turn the world upside down, airports and airlines are grappling with the new normal. How can they safely provide critical...

pickeringairport.org

if you would like additional context on the alternative to a private money investment in Pickering, the privatization of our existing airports, see the history lesson in this Saturdays Toronto Star.

this will be an election issue, should be fun!

This really means a shovel ready airport is needed. Not a greenfield project. I'll bet to bring Hamilton up to the level that Pickering would be expected to be built by the little plane advocates, it would be faster than building a new airport in a greenfield, including all the transportation and utility services. Yes, more space may be needed due to covid challenges, but it does not warrant a new, greenfield project. A new terminal at Hamilton, and possibly one at London and Waterloo might make sense.

I look forward to the net argument you post.