Ottawa Transit Developments

[nfitz]

Or do Edmonton and Calgary not exist to you

I agree that the whole thing is overstated, but Ottawa gets a lot more snow than either Edmonton or Calgary, which according to this are more similar to Toronto in total snowfall. https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Canada/Cities/snowfall-annual-average.php

 

[Allandale25]

 

[steveintoronto]

See: https://www.thoughtco.com/coldest-capital-cities-1435314

Helsinki, a colder city than Ottawa, has more LRT routes than Toronto:
https://www.hsl.fi/sites/default/files/uploads/raitiolinjat_ja_keskustan_bussilinjoja.pdf

Here's one of their latest models (made in Helsinki) doing 80 kph street running, albeit the streets are dry:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=400665866711328

There's many cities further north and colder than Ottawa successfully running efficient tram systems.

 

[nfitz]

Helsinki, a colder city than Ottawa, has more LRT routes than Toronto:

I think the climate issues are overstated - but how is Helsinki colder than Ottawa?

If you compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa#Climate then Ottawa has colder winter daily means, average lows, and extremes than Helsinki. It also has higher record highs in the winter than Helsinki, and higher summer temperatures.

For example, the all-time record-low listed for Helsinki is only -34.4°C, compared to -38.9°C in Ottawa. The daily mean's are colder in Ottawa from November through March. The coldest month in Ottawa is January - the daily mean is -10.2°C! It's only -3.9°C in Helsinki!

Even Helsinki's temperatures are moderated by the Gulf Stream and the adjacent Baltic Sea. Does Murmansk have streetcars? Murmansk is far more comparable to Ottawa. Even Moscow is colder than Helsinki.

I'm not sure just how many realize how cold Canada is compared to much of Europe, even the northern bits.

(looks like trams in Murmansk, which weren't electrified, ended in 1934 - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мурманский_трамвай)

 

[steveintoronto]

but how is Helsinki colder than Ottawa?

As linked in my prior post:

A List of the Coldest Cities
Interestingly, Ottawa, considered an extremely cold city in North America, had an average of "only" 41.9°F/5.5°C—meaning it wasn't even in the top five! It's number seven.

Does Murmansk have streetcars?

I don't know, that wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

Even Moscow is colder than Helsinki.

Indeed, colder than Ottawa too. Voila:

Moscow tram is a transit system serving the city of Moscow (Russia) with the subway, the urban, suburban & commuter train and the bus. The tram network has 50 lines forming a rail network of 258 miles (416 km).

Map of Moscow tram: stations & lines
https://en.moscowmap360.ru/moscow-tram-map

[...]
On 25th February 2014, Alstom invited transport bloggers for a ride on its modern tramway based on the Citadis model and developed for the countries with track gauge 1524 mm together with the Russian partner Transmashholding (TMH).

Alstom presented the first in Russia high-speed tramway to Moscow

Here's the context the answers have been proffered to:

Just remember these guys building the LRT in Ottawa aren't professionals. No one seems to have any experience with building, commissioning and operating a LRT in harsh Canadian weather.

I'd say that Alstom certainly have.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I'm not sure mean annual temperature is the right measure, but what really matters in this scenario is average annual snowfall and it seems Helsinki is very comparable

Helsinki Monthly Climate Averages

Realtime weather, 14 day weather forecast, historical weather at Helsinki Monthly Climate Averages

www.worldweatheronline.com

Ottawa Annual Weather Averages - Ontario, CA

Find out annual weather averages in Ottawa, Ontario, CA throughout the year. Best time to visit Ottawa, Canada and what to wear in Ottawa, Canada

www.worldweatheronline.com

 

[nfitz]

As linked in my prior post:

That link doesn't mention Helsinki. You said Helsinki is colder than Ottawa. It's actually significantly warmer than Ottawa.

Even Moscow seems warmer than Ottawa with higher monthly average low and mean temperatures throughout the winter. Even the Ottawa extreme low is lower for December and February - though Moscow beats it for January.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

That link doesn't mention Helsinki. You said Helsinki is colder than Ottawa. It's actually significantly warmer than Ottawa.

Even Moscow seems warmer than Ottawa with higher monthly average low and mean temperatures throughout the winter. Even the Ottawa extreme low is lower for December and February - though Moscow beats it for January.

The article Steve references uses a weird metric. They just averaged the entire year as a number and ranked that way. So, because Ottawa gets much hotter than Helsinki in the summer, that bumps up that annual number and its how it ends up with Helsinki as "colder".

I think most people would want the average winter temperature, not the average overall temp when ranking coldness

 

[steveintoronto]

That link doesn't mention Helsinki.

Helsinki (Finland) 40.1°F/4.5°C
Helsinki is both the capital and largest city of Finland, situated on the shore of the Gulf of Finland on the tip of a peninsula and on 315 islands. The average winter temperature in January and February is -5°C (23°F). Given Helsinki's northern latitude one would normally expect colder winter temperatures, but the Baltic Sea and North Atlantic Current have a mitigating effect on the temperatures, keeping them somewhat warmer in the winter, and cooler during the day in the summer.

https://www.thoughtco.com/coldest-capital-cities-1435314

The point is getting lost...I'll post it again:

Here's the context the answers have been proffered to:

Steve X said:
Just remember these guys building the LRT in Ottawa aren't professionals. No one seems to have any experience with building, commissioning and operating a LRT in harsh Canadian weather.

I'd say that Alstom certainly have.

And there are other *cities*, not just *capital cities* that have trams that are colder in winter than Ottawa. As the point pertains to *Alstom* the Citadis not only are proven in a similar climate to Ottawa, they are in great numbers.

• Citadis 301 CIS – 100% low floor version with IPOMOS bogies on 1,524 mm (5 ft) gauge (Moscow, Saint-Petersburg[3]). Also designated 71-801 according to the Russian unified system of rolling stock classification (71=trams, 8=manufacturer code(Alstom), 01=model code).

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis

Ottawa's experience isn't so much to do with whether her specific model of tram and LRT system are suitable for the climate or not, but that it's new, and there's a learning curve to operating an able machine and system in that climate, just as there is to driving double decker buses on icy roads. That being said, historically Ottawa had an extensive tram system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Electric_Railway

 

[OCCheetos]

Ottawa's experience isn't so much to do with whether her specific model of tram and LRT system are suitable for the climate or not, but that it's new, and there's a learning curve to operating an able machine and system in that climate, just as there is to driving double decker buses on icy roads. That being said, historically Ottawa had an extensive tram system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Electric_Railway

That being said, historically Ottawa has had an urban rail system for the last ~20 or so years.

Sure there's a difference between operating/driving a "heavy" rail DMU and an electric LRV, but it's not like Ottawa doesn't have recent experience with rail.

 

[nfitz]

The point is getting lost...I'll post it again:

Looking at your dubious source https://www.thoughtco.com/coldest-capital-cities-1435314 - the issue is clear - this is a total average of the entire year! But Ottawa has very warm summers. If you have average the entire year, Ottawa may well be slightly warmer than Helsinki.

That's not the point though. The point is the cold winters. If you just look at the winter, Ottawa is MUCH colder than Helsinki ... and even colder than Moscow. That the summers in Ottawa get very hot, doesn't mitigate the very cold winters - if anything they would exacerbate the situation, as you'd need more intensive cooling than you might need in a place that doesn't get as hot!

 

[steveintoronto]

That's not the point though.

You got that right. For once. The point is that Ottawa does not have an insurmountable problem with the LRT and cold weather. It was a glitch, if that.

THAT is the point.

Here's the context the answers have been proffered to:

Steve X said:
Just remember these guys building the LRT in Ottawa aren't professionals. No one seems to have any experience with building, commissioning and operating a LRT in harsh Canadian weather.

I'd say that Alstom certainly have.

The point is the cold winters.

Already addressed that by stating "Cities" as opposed to "Capital Cities". And since you'd argue that too:

And there are other *cities*, not just *capital cities* that have trams that are colder in winter than Ottawa.

And besides all of which, the issue, as others have pointed out, is snowfall, not temperature.

Here's what the CBC (in one of a series of articles) states is the problem as per weather:

The reports say that "panels are coming loose and breaking on LRVs [light-rail vehicles] due to snow building up on the vehicles," and that snow and ice are "frequently causing the doors to freeze shut."

Both brakes and bogies — the underframe of the rail car that holds the wheels — also freeze up if the vehicles "sit for any amount of time" outdoors during a snowfall.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-trains-unreliable-says-report-1.5038832

Do those issues have to be addressed? Almost inevitably, but they appear to be relatively easy fixes. Compared to TTC's BBD problem, it looks like just tweaking is necessary, and it could ostensibly been done over the Summer. We'll see. Some have claimed the report is overstating the problems. Lessons might have to be learned from cities like Moscow where ostensibly similar trucks (bogies) also derived from the Citadis model are used.

 

[rbt]

I think most people would want the average winter temperature, not the average overall temp when ranking coldness

Indeed. If you spec for a vehicle for the average temperature only, rather than the entire extreme low<->high range, then you will end up with a vehicle that sits in the yard 300 days a year.

Supporting the seasonal low and seasonal high isn't enough unless you're happy with the system being offline during non-seasonal lows/highs.

 

[nfitz]

Already addressed that by stating "Cities" as opposed to "Capital Cities". And since you'd argue that too:

I'm not sure what city versus capital city has do do with anything. I'm not even sure I know what the capital of Finland is ... nor do I see how that's relevant.

You said "Helsinki, a colder city than Ottawa, has more LRT routes than Toronto." I said "I think the climate issues are overstated - but how is Helsinki colder than Ottawa? "

We seem to agree that the climate issues are overstated. I assume you agree that Ottawa has colder winters. I don't understand what you are trying to argue here ... or what being a capital or not has to do with it!

Given that Edmonton IS colder than Ottawa in the winter, I'm not sure why we even need to be looking for European cities for temperature issues!

 

[steveintoronto]

Given that Edmonton IS colder than Ottawa in the winter, I'm not sure why we even need to be looking for European cities for temperature issues!

Then argue with yourself:

I agree that the whole thing is overstated, but Ottawa gets a lot more snow than either Edmonton or Calgary, which according to this are more similar to Toronto in total snowfall. https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Canada/Cities/snowfall-annual-average.php