Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[Northern Light]

I, for one, think the Northlander (or train service between Toronto and North Bay, at the very least) , really ought to be viable, and therefore ought not to have been cancelled in the first place.

That said, one has to acknowledge, that as operated, the Northlander was a failed service.

Poor scheduling, unacceptably long travel times, aging equipment and maintenance facility and other overhead that could have been lower had the service been delivered by a different carrier.

A conscious investment, to upgrade track and signals, close a few select crossings, add the odd passing track section etc etc., along with proper equipment choice should be able to shave more than an hour off best historical travel times (Toronto to NB). There really is no reason, with conventional rail equipment, not to be able to get travel times under 3.5 hours.

If you did that, had one extra train set and ran predictable service, twice each way, each day (allowing day trips). Had the service operated by VIA or railing that a long-distance passenger sub-unit of GO, so that equipment could be maintained, in Toronto, by VIA, and senior mgt/marketing/ticketing could largely be handled by existing staff w/negligible overhead it should prove viable, and useful with only a moderate subsidy per passenger (operating). Obviously it would also require sensible pricing as well.

I tend to think service that is Toronto-NB, Toronto-Sudbury, Sudbury-TB, NB-Cochrane and maybe NB-Ottawa could all be viable. Other services are less justifiable (far north loop, Kenora and reinstating service to the Sault).

That said the capital layout to get worthwhile service will not be cheap!

 

[micheal_can]

I, for one, think the Northlander (or train service between Toronto and North Bay, at the very least) , really ought to be viable, and therefore ought not to have been cancelled in the first place.

That said, one has to acknowledge, that as operated, the Northlander was a failed service.

Poor scheduling, unacceptably long travel times, aging equipment and maintenance facility and other overhead that could have been lower had the service been delivered by a different carrier.

A conscious investment, to upgrade track and signals, close a few select crossings, add the odd passing track section etc etc., along with proper equipment choice should be able to shave more than an hour off best historical travel times (Toronto to NB). There really is no reason, with conventional rail equipment, not to be able to get travel times under 3.5 hours.

If you did that, had one extra train set and ran predictable service, twice each way, each day (allowing day trips). Had the service operated by VIA or railing that a long-distance passenger sub-unit of GO, so that equipment could be maintained, in Toronto, by VIA, and senior mgt/marketing/ticketing could largely be handled by existing staff w/negligible overhead it should prove viable, and useful with only a moderate subsidy per passenger (operating). Obviously it would also require sensible pricing as well.

I tend to think service that is Toronto-NB, Toronto-Sudbury, Sudbury-TB, NB-Cochrane and maybe NB-Ottawa could all be viable. Other services are less justifiable (far north loop, Kenora and reinstating service to the Sault).

That said the capital layout to get worthwhile service will not be cheap!

The schedule was backwards for everyone. No Sunday service means that cottages can't take it, and those going for a weekend getaway to Toronto can't take it. The schedule really is the biggest problem.

The Ontario government owns a maintenance facility that has and can refurbish GO Bilevel cars. Sadly, the sent that contract elsewhere. If the province was smart(and we all know they won't be.) they should change thing so that the ONR Shops in North Bay become the sole major maintenance facility for all provincial rail services.

What would be great to see is 3 lines run by the province:
Moosonee - North Bay - Toronto
Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - Sault St Marie - Sudbury - North Bay - Ottawa
Sudbury - Toronto

These 3 lines form the backbone of the province. Even if they were run every second day, they would still be viable. It sounds like HCR and OVR are about to close. The province should begin to acquire these lines along with ACR. Together with the ONR, they become a great network for serving the people of The North.

 

[ShonTron]

The schedule was backwards for everyone. No Sunday service means that cottages can't take it, and those going for a weekend getaway to Toronto can't take it. The schedule really is the biggest problem.

The Ontario government owns a maintenance facility that has and can refurbish GO Bilevel cars. Sadly, the sent that contract elsewhere. If the province was smart(and we all know they won't be.) they should change thing so that the ONR Shops in North Bay become the sole major maintenance facility for all provincial rail services.

What would be great to see is 3 lines run by the province:
Moosonee - North Bay - Toronto
Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - Sault St Marie - Sudbury - North Bay - Ottawa
Sudbury - Toronto

These 3 lines form the backbone of the province. Even if they were run every second day, they would still be viable. It sounds like HCR and OVR are about to close. The province should begin to acquire these lines along with ACR. Together with the ONR, they become a great network for serving the people of The North.

The track is gone between Mattawa and Ottawa on CP, and has been since 2012. All the CN tracks through the Ottawa Valley were pulled between the early 1990s and 2015.

 

[Fritter]

The track is gone between Mattawa and Ottawa on CP, and has been since 2012. All the CN tracks through the Ottawa Valley were pulled between the early 1990s and 2015.

I assume most of the right of ways are still intact though?

 

[micheal_can]

The track is gone between Mattawa and Ottawa on CP, and has been since 2012. All the CN tracks through the Ottawa Valley were pulled between the early 1990s and 2015.

I assume most of the right of ways are still intact though?

As far as I know, the row is still intact.

 

[ShonTron]

As far as I know, the row is still intact.

Yes, the CP ROW from Mattawa and Smiths Falls is still intact. Renfrew County is planning a trail. The Carleton Place-Ottawa track, abandoned soon after the old VIA Canadian (via CP) was cancelled in 1990, is also a trail, but the ROW is not fully intact anymore in parts of urbanized Ottawa or Carleton Place, and the newer twinned Highway 7 overpass was built for a trail crossing, not a railway.

Theoretically, you could still connect the old CP route with the intact railway between Arnprior and Ottawa, but that would be very expensive.

I would rather the province commit to better intercity bus connections than rebuilding rail lines in rural Ontario for basic passenger service. It would be a much bigger bang for the buck.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, the CP ROW from Mattawa and Smiths Falls is still intact. Renfrew County is planning a trail. The Carleton Place-Ottawa track, abandoned soon after the old VIA Canadian (via CP) was cancelled in 1990, is also a trail, but the ROW is not fully intact anymore in parts of urbanized Ottawa or Carleton Place, and the newer twinned Highway 7 overpass was built for a trail crossing, not a railway.

Theoretically, you could still connect the old CP route with the intact railway between Arnprior and Ottawa, but that would be very expensive.

I would rather the province commit to better intercity bus connections than rebuilding rail lines in rural Ontario for basic passenger service. It would be a much bigger bang for the buck.

Leaving the row as a trail, intact is a good thing.

Using existing raillines to connect the major cities and improving intercity bus services would be a great start.

 

[gweed123]

I'd like to see rail service restored to North Bay, but have connecting bus service to other communities in the north, timed so that it's an easy transfer in NB. I don't think the demand is there for frequent rail service beyond NB, so rather than spreading the rail dollars and equipment too thin, focus on the common link connecting the north to the GTA. If there's a particular bus route out of NB that starts performing really well, then consider upgrading to rail.

Start with 2 round trips a day, and go from there. And I agree that using a UPX type of vehicle would be a good path forward, though I also wouldn't be opposed to using some of the other GO locomotives and doing a refurb on some of the older bi- levels to make them more palatable for longer distance trips (comfier seats, etc). Run an older loco with 2 bi-levels attached and you should be good to go.

 

[dowlingm]

I also wouldn't be opposed to using some of the other GO locomotives and doing a refurb on some of the older bi- levels to make them more palatable for longer distance trips (comfier seats, etc). Run an older loco with 2 bi-levels attached and you should be good to go.

The old ONTC service used a freight locomotive (GP40?) and an APU for power to the coaches, which were high floor. I don't have direct knowledge but the fuel burn must have been impressive. West Coast Express showed that you can have refreshments on bilevels, and presumably they would be easier/quicker to board. ONTC did test a bilevel in standard config near the end of the Northlander. I do think it's important that any return to rail between North Bay and Toronto does serve the 905 in order to take advantage of local connections, operate daily and market to Torontonians and not just pitch it as a service useful only to those who live in the north.

 

[innsertnamehere]

3 daily round trips, maximized travel times, and improved stop locations would be helpful. Stop at Langstaff GO, Mount Albert, and Beaverton to serve the suburbs better and try to build a bit of a commuter audience. Have a morning "commuter" run arriving shortly before 9am, a midday train, and an evening train inbound. Reverse outbound, with an evening rush train leaving around 5:30. Run these trains every day regardless of service.

I sure as hell know I would use it occasionally to access cottage country.

 

[lenaitch]

I honestly do think there is a strong desire and market for a return of the Northlander passenger service as an alternative to air and certainly to bus which can be very difficult and uncomfortable for many people. The former run did have some limited success with providing weekend 'cottage' service to Muskoka but was hindered by poor scheduling. There would need to be a late afternoon/early evening northbound on Friday and a similar southbound run on Sunday. One problem with making significant changes to either scheduling or speed is that all of the trackage from Toronto to North Bay is CN, and mainline from Toronto to Washago. I think anything more that alternate-day service, even daily service, is a bit optimistic and there may or may not be the ridership. Any effort to bias the scheduling to accommodate yet more commuter options along the Bala sub. near Toronto would impair the scheduling - it should be an intercity service.

The ROWs between Mattawa and the Ottawa area might still physically exist, but who owns the land? I don't think they have been railbanked. Once the ROW, even bits of it, have been turned over to the municipalities, it becomes very difficult to get it back. The cost of rebuilding the infrastructure for a low volume, passenger only service doesn't seem to make economic sense and the freight carriers have already said they don't need it by abandoning them in the first place. I would have preferred that the federal government would have made a 'national interest' argument for disallowing both carriers to abandon their Ottawa valley routes and routing all traffic through Toronto. In a couple of locations, both lines run right beside each other. Of course, the government would have had to pony up money to enforce that argument.

I can see the ONR taking over the CP Sudbury/Mattawa/Temiskaming lease from OVR. It is a bit of a stranded service now; there are a couple of solid customers to the east of North Bay but I don't know what the North Bay-Sudbury traffic is. I assume there is some interchange traffic with CP. As for the Huron Central, who knows. Without it, Algoma (Essar) steel loses its only south-leading Canadian rail link, but it is a significant departure from ONRs traditional operating area. I'm not sure there is a business case for passenger service in this corridor.

One thing that may have a significant impact on freight traffic, and hence the future viability of rail lines, is the chosen location for the chromite refinery for the Ring of Fire. All of the northern cities are lobbying hard, each with their own transportation pros and cons.

 

[amnesiajune]

I really don't get the fascination with the Northlander. I took it a few times and it was definitely a nice train ride, but as far as I can tell there's no good reason to operate it when it needs a $400/passenger operating subsidy (likely a lot more if it's being expanded to multiple runs per day). It can't run much faster than bus service even with massive investments, it costs a lot more than bus service, and buses are able to connect Barrie and Orillia to the route (trains aren't because the railway is on the other side of Lake Simcoe).

 

[lenaitch]

If you are elderly or have mobility issues, a bus can run the gamut from extremely uncomfortable to inaccessible. To my mind, the per passenger subsidy is a false argument; it is public funds to support public transportation, be it a per passenger rate or billions for subways or roads. No public transportation infrastructure in Ontario runs solely out of the farebox or fuel taxes.

 

[amnesiajune]

If you are elderly or have mobility issues, a bus can run the gamut from extremely uncomfortable to inaccessible.

That's something that can be addressed by buying better buses.

To my mind, the per passenger subsidy is a false argument; it is public funds to support public transportation, be it a per passenger rate or billions for subways or roads. No public transportation infrastructure in Ontario runs solely out of the farebox or fuel taxes.

$400/passenger is literally just lighting money on fire. Again, bus service is just as fast, and it connects more parts of the province, and it's more frequent, and on top of all that, it costs a lot less to run. If accessibility is really the concern, the service can use more accessible buses. Frankly, ordering accessible taxis for the handful of passengers who need them would still be more cost-effective than the train.

 

[White Pine]

If you are elderly or have mobility issues, a bus can run the gamut from extremely uncomfortable to inaccessible. To my mind, the per passenger subsidy is a false argument; it is public funds to support public transportation, be it a per passenger rate or billions for subways or roads. No public transportation infrastructure in Ontario runs solely out of the farebox or fuel taxes.

Also winter.