Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[innsertnamehere]

perhaps it'll be details on the plan to bring back northlander service? I imagine they are not going to just start it up tomorrow again, they will want to spend a bit of money to make it more useful.

 

[Bordercollie]

You're an optimist, but here's to hoping. Personally I think it might be something like an increase to motor coach service - would make the province seem more responsive to the collapse of Greyhound and also offer a cheap substitute for actual Northlander restoration that could be brought up as a deflection tactic.

Would they need to lease more buses in order to provide more service?

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Something is being announced tomorrow.

But it will involve Northland in some way, since the CEO of same will be in attendance.

View attachment 322286

This is 100% going to be the release of the Northlander business case, as promised in Budget 2021.

 

[Allandale25]

NEWS RELEASE Ontario Takes Next Step with Northeastern Passenger Rail​ Next Stage of Planning Will Focus on a Proposed Service Route May 25, 2021 Ministry of Transportation

NORTH BAY – Today, Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation, announced that the Ontario government is improving transportation in the North by taking the next step towards bringing passenger rail service to people in the northeast with the release of the Initial Business Case. The province is building a better transportation network for Northern Ontario, making it easier and more convenient for people to get where they need to go. “We have listened to people, businesses and Indigenous communities across Northern Ontario who have long awaited the return of train service on the northeast corridor,” said Minister Mulroney. “This important milestone in the planning process brings us another step closer to building a better transportation network in the North.” The province, Ontario Northland and Metrolinx are moving forward with further planning for a 13-stop route that would provide service from Toronto to Timmins or Cochrane. As part of the 2021 Ontario Budget, the government committed $5 million to support this planning and design work. Service would be offered based on seasonal travel demands and would range from four to seven days a week. The service would allow passengers coming from the North to travel overnight to maximize their day in the Toronto area and reduce the need for overnight accommodations in Toronto, if preferred. The target completion date for the next stage of planning and design work is 2022 which could allow a potential in-service date in the mid 2020s. “We made a commitment to return passenger rail to the North and we are one step closer to fulfilling that commitment,” said Vic Fedeli, Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade and MPP for Nipissing. “The planning we’re doing today will help to determine the details, and we are confident that the proposed service route would provide the best value and options to support economic opportunities, the tourism industry and access to healthcare, education and other critical services.” “Improved passenger rail would provide people across Parry Sound-Muskoka with another way to travel both north and south to access services and it would give visitors to our local tourism operators a comfortable way to travel to the area,” said Norman Miller, MPP for Parry Sound–Muskoka. “I look forward to seeing this project progress and welcoming the many benefits improved rail service will bring to our region.” “Today we reached a very important milestone in our plan to reinstate passenger rail,” said Corina Moore, President and CEO of Ontario Northland. “An enhanced transportation network that integrates rail and bus services provides an exciting opportunity for the region to grow and improve. We are proud to be moving this plan forward.” “The Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities welcomes the additional funding in the 2021 provincial budget directed toward passenger rail for Northern Ontario,” said Danny Whalen, Councillor for the City of Temiskaming Shores and President of the Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities. “The Board also supports the cautious approach being used by Minister Mulroney. Let’s all follow the minister’s lead and ensure that we do this properly with a safe rail system and schedules that meet the needs of the public.”

Quick Facts​ Ontario Northland’s Northlander Passenger Train stopped service in 2012 (communities served by the Northlander had access to bus service as well). Ontario Northland currently operates four buses daily between Toronto and North Bay, and one or two buses daily from North Bay to Timmins and Cochrane. The route for further planning (Option 6 in the Initial Business Case) has 13 stops including Toronto (Union Station), Langstaff, Gormley, Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, North Bay, Temagami, Temiskaming Shores, Englehart, Matheson and Timmins or Cochrane. A seamlessly integrated bus service will connect with passenger rail to provide service to communities between rail stops. From October 23 to November 20, 2020, more than 7,200 people, including 8.3% of respondents that self-identified as Indigenous, shared their feedback about transportation opportunities along the rail corridor between Toronto, North Bay, Timmins or Cochrane.

Additional Resources​ Northern Rail Initial Business Case More about passenger rail in the North

 

[Northern Light]

From the Initial Business Case:

IBC linked here: https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/Northeastern-Passenger-Rail-Service-Initial-Business-Case.pdf?utm_campaign=/en/release/1000142/ontario-takes-next-step-with-northeastern-passenger-rail&utm_source=newsroom&utm_term=public&utm_medium=email

 

[innsertnamehere]

The press release makes it appear that the province is moving forward with option 6.

Hopefully they time trains on seasonal service to allow for cottage bound traffic to use it with a friday evening northbound train and southbound train sunday afternoon. I would probably take it once just to try it out.

All I have to ask is: it took 3 years to make this document?

 

[Allandale25]

Not the most representative/to scale rolling stock used in this short video, but I guess it's better than nothing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1397210373082820619

 

[OntarioOnTheMove]

Potential restoration of passenger rail service to the Timmins area piques my interest. It will be interesting to see more details about the needed infrastructure upgrades and a new station site if that option is selected.

 

[TRONto]

Just go with option 3B and be done with it. Provide Ontario communities with a minimally decent amount of service. The subsidy in the scheme of things is so small. It's probably the same that the Sheppard Subway costs us. Get Ontario connected!

 

[Northern Light]

Just go with option 3B and be done with it. Provide Ontario communities with a minimally decent amount of service. The subsidy in the scheme of things is so small. It's probably the same that the Sheppard Subway costs us. Get Ontario connected!

I too would support 2x daily service for the simple reason that IF the decision is made to invest considerable sums; we ought not to set up the new (restored) service for failure.

Doing that; might imply this is simply a way to subsidize upgrades to CN's mainline.

That said, I am open to something a bit different; which is breaking the route at North Bay; with a separate service north thereof.

To me that should be an option based on:

1) Serving the largest population north of Barrie w/service that reflects that.

2) Improving service reliability and schedule adherence by shortening the route (s)

3) A lot of people from the far north will need access to a place like North Bay, comparatively fewer will need to go on to Toronto.

North Bay - Toronto has its own demand, discrete from a far north connecting service.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I could see the case for 2 times daily service to North Bay with a reduced service level north of that.

 

[Northern Light]

I could see the case for 2 times daily service to North Bay with a reduced service level north of that.

That option should certainly be on the table.

Though I do wonder if you ran Toronto-NB; and NB-Cochrane as completely distinct services, having shorter trips times, greater reliability and serving locally convenient time windows whether you might not be able to generate sufficient demand for 2x daily.

Presumably with larger volumes on the more southerly route; you could tailor rolling stock to meet the need, with shorter consists on a portion of the combined route.

 

[tmlittle]

That option should certainly be on the table.

Though I do wonder if you ran Toronto-NB; and NB-Cochrane as completely distinct services, having shorter trips times, greater reliability and serving locally convenient time windows whether you might not be able to generate sufficient demand for 2x daily.

Presumably with larger volumes on the more southerly route; you could tailor rolling stock to meet the need, with shorter consists on a portion of the combined route.

I think I see what you're getting at and I'm inclined to agree. North Bay is a transfer point for east and west traffic, and a lot of trip patterns between North Bay and further north will look different. I'd expect to see shorter trips, a smaller ridership pool, and more frequent repeat ridership. That might be best served with more frequent, smaller trains (s recurring theme in rural Ontario transit, in my opinion). However I'm not entirely sure of the practicalities of terminating at NB - you might end up just having the train sit around anyway. There's also the question of what rolling stock you'd use and how easily it could be up sized/downsized.

 

[christine]

I know comments have been made above but after reading the PDF I want to share my replies because I can:


Re: Case for Change - Problem Statement

In addition, the COVID-19 pandemic has greatly impacted air service in the North, that may never return to pre-COVID service levels. There is also a focus on enhancing tourism options to promote Ontario’s ‘stay-cation’ approach to economic recovery. A passenger rail service would provide significant value to both of these focus areas.

Yeah especially with that mid-2020s start date. Wait a minute....


Re: : Reinstated Service

There will be no on-board sales of food or beverages, and station facilities will not allow for on-site ticket vending

Yeah that's not reinstated service. Even the buses along the corridor do breaks every couple of hours, often with food options available. Or at least the times I took it. And if you're planning to offer some kind of overnight service people may want their coffee and bagel before being dumped into Union.


Re: Service Level Options

Option 5: Staged Service

This option considers alternative phasing for service extensions to Timmins or Cochrane. The service will terminate at North Bay for the first ten years of service, and then serve Timmins or Cochrane over the remainder of the evaluation period.

I'm no expert but considering Cochrane-North Bay should be easy because its ONR's turf, this one sounds like politics. Currently Nippising (North Bay) and south is PC territory. They can always hold that carrot over for a re-election promise so this is the option you don't want unless you're a politician. Fortunately it scored poorly.


Re: Travel Time

Year-round flights are available to and from Timmins, at costs comparable to rail if booked in advance with a travel time of approximately 90 to 100 minutes

This is an argument the previous government made and will be difficult to beat whenever the fate of the service comes up by subsequent governments. We'll see if Porter hikes prices for cost recovery post pandemic. Or the opposite.


Re: Travel Reliability and Network Resilience

There is still the potential for rail service delays as a result of conflicting rail movements, particularly on single track territory where trains may need to wait in sidings to allow for an opposing train to pass. The Enhanced Service options propose additional passing track locations to mitigate this risk, while Twice Daily Service options would also provide passing tracks at regular intervals to provide further operational flexibility. Enhanced and Twice daily service would come at a very high cost, however, and may not be justifiable given the population and potential ridership.

Hard sell, especially for Newmarket and Bala, where the delays in service materialized.


Re: Train Stop Infrastructure

The infrastructure for a typical station on the corridor includes a side rail platform, heated station shelters, passenger information displays and CCTV monitoring.

Predictable. At least it'll be better that the Porquis Junction shelter.


Re: Table 26 - Stop Requirements
- Muskoka seems to have a lot of "Purchase or lease property and reinstate station; base station scope" while North of North Bay has the more "base station" response.
- Related, despite station lands being owned by Ontario Northland I'm seeing a lot of "Construct new station; base station scope", giving the north the unappealing shelter options in an area that gets hammered with harsh weather.
- Good for them for presenting a Timmins option. But how well will that play out? The capital cost is pretty significant (by their numbers), making this project a bigger money pit and ripe for cancellation. Expect a station on the outskirts of Timmins if it does materialize.


Re: Environmental Assessment Requirements

Both northern extension options will require a new shelter servicing Temiskaming Shores,

Funny, i was at the New Liskeard property recently and the station is still there, just somewhat run down, but could use some fixing up, resurfacing of the road way.


Re: Project Dependencies:

The on-time performance of the rail service is a key driver in achieving the projected ridership and delivering benefits for passengers. This metric is dependent on CN handling of the passenger trains on their territory and should be considered within the discussions for corridor access.

As mentioned above this is the biggest hurdle. Especially if you want to attract cottage country clientele, which uses CN trackage for most of those trips.

 

[Garuda]

I could see the case for 2 times daily service to North Bay with a reduced service level north of that.

I’d also like to see a zoning and official plan change for properties within 500m of each station to encourage density.