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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

smallspy said:
If I remember correctly, the differences between it and the regular service were pretty minimal - the same seats, but configured further apart and with tray tables and outlets. I seem to recall that there was a complimentary snack and beverage included as well.

Dan
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That’s interesting.

New trainset discussion made me look back at the photos I took of the Hawkers in 2012.

Here’s some views of inside the train from that trip:

713BF58C-8BA9-4501-A1A0-55D4D20F7DD8.jpegF8804778-3C3F-4B41-A606-DB9B14DBCC16.jpegF456E0E1-7791-4A29-9B3C-F3619C458AD1.jpeg
 
ShonTron said:
Sounds like Amtrak business class.
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And it should. ONR contracted with Amtrak to plan and oversee the refurbishment of the Hawker cars in the early 2000s. That's primarily why they used the same model of seats as Amtrak had been using in their Amfleet cars, amongst other things.

Dan
 
I was chatting with a cottage-owning colleague this week. He said that one barrier facing Northland in attracting cottage-goers is that they usually haul tonnes of bags, bins and groceries with them. I can't imagine the luggage fees are cheap.
 
christiesplits said:
I was chatting with a cottage-owning colleague this week. He said that one barrier facing Northland in attracting cottage-goers is that they usually haul tonnes of bags, bins and groceries with them. I can't imagine the luggage fees are cheap.
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From what I understand, they will be identical to the Via sets which do not include a baggage car.Unlike the Corridor, this service would be better served with a baggage car.
 
Seriously, there’s no way the Northlander, as planned, would serve the people headed to their cottages the way remote VIA services do. It won’t stop just anywhere en route, unlike The Canadian in Northern Ontario or the White River RDC. Within cottage country, it will stop in the town centres of places like Gravenhurst or Bracebridge.

The Muskoka cottage country area is not the kind of market that will take trains anyway. If you have a cottage, you probably also have a SUV. They all have road access. Any cottage-goers taking the train will be visitors or family members being picked up at the nearest station, not talking big loads of baggage.

The old Northlander, if I recall, didn’t have a baggage car either.

The only thing I see different is Ontario Northland being less anal about the onboard luggage allowance than VIA is.
 
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christiesplits said:
I was chatting with a cottage-owning colleague this week. He said that one barrier facing Northland in attracting cottage-goers is that they usually haul tonnes of bags, bins and groceries with them. I can't imagine the luggage fees are cheap.
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For cottage-goers, I would be more worried about the cost and availability of last-minute tickets. I think it would be hard to have the kids and grandkids come up for the weekend by train if they have to pre-book 2 months in advance.
 
Sauga89 said:
For cottage-goers, I would be more worried about the cost and availability of last-minute tickets. I think it would be hard to have the kids and grandkids come up for the weekend by train if they have to pre-book 2 months in advance.
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There are also several ON buses a day serving the same destinations, along with the Highway 400/69 corridor, stopping in places like MacTier and Parry Sound.
 
ShonTron said:
Seriously, there’s no way the Northlander, as planned, would serve the people headed to their cottages the way remote VIA services do. It won’t stop just anywhere en route, unlike The Canadian in Northern Ontario or the White River RDC. Within cottage country, it will stop in the town centres of places like Gravenhurst or Bracebridge.

The Muskoka cottage country area is not the kind of market that will take trains anyway. If you have a cottage, you probably also have a SUV. They all have road access. Any cottage-goers taking the train will be visitors or family members being picked up at the nearest station, not talking big loads of baggage.

The old Northlander, if I recall, didn’t have a baggage car either.

The only thing I see different is Ontario Northland being less anal about the onboard luggage allowance than VIA is.
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I tend to agree. Muskoka cottaging isn't backcountry tripping or shlepping a family load of kit to a day at Wasaga Beach. I don't see people jumping off in Huntsville heading for a week on the land in Algonquin. The service might be attractive to visiting friends/family or a family member joining the rest of their family already in situ as well resort packages. I do vaguely recall that, in the latter throes of the previous Northlander, they adjusted the timing that did result in some ridership. Regardless, I don't think it will be huge.

On problem with the proposed schedule in the Business Case (which is all we have to go on) is the times aren't great.

NB

Grhst: 2045
Bbdg: 2100
Htsvl: 2135

SB

Htsvl: 0750
Bbdg: 0825
Grhst: 0840

If someone's work schedule allows, they might be able to handle an early Monday start to get into Union at 1055, but I doubt a resort-goer is going to pay for an extra night only to get out at the crack-o-dawn.
 
ShonTron said:
There are also several ON buses a day serving the same destinations, along with the Highway 400/69 corridor, stopping in places like MacTier and Parry Sound.
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You are right of course, but I think even the Northland bus requires you to book in advance, and you can't simply reschedule last minute.

Also, how much does the average person in Toronto know about those buses? For cottage country, it would be great to see GO promote a seasonal bus route from Barrie to Gravenhurst, perhaps in partnership with Ontario Northland. That way, people could just show up and tap. Plus, the schedules would be visible on GO's website.
 
Northland will accept same-day sales at staffed stations and terminals (North Bay, Sudbury, etc.) and same-day online ticket sales. The only caveat is that you have to buy with enough notice for the driver to know to stop at flag stops. The operator who picked me up at Kenora Hospital (a flag stop off the highway) earlier this year knew my name because I booked in advance and I was on the manifest.

I would agree, however, that there could be a lot more Metrolinx/GO could do to coordinate with Ontario Northland and regional transit agencies like Simcoe Linx and Niagara Transit, even marking connections at stops and on timetables.
 
I'm not completely dismissing the potential for a morning in, end of workday out service to cottage country.... but I agree the market will not resemble either weekend cottage users' auto commute or everyday business commuters.

There are likely enough people already "working from home" in Muskoka who make occasional work trips to the city...and for whom a properly equipped business class car ( ie superior wifi and seats that are workstations and not airplane seat lookalikes) would represent useful office time such that a late morning arrival is not a disincentive. Any one rider might only ride once a month, but the population may be big enough to fill a coach or two daily. It would depend on the last mile need.... it's one thing to attend a meeting at King and Bay, but if your employer or clients are in Mississauga, the train becomes less attractive than the 400/404 ordeal.

And, many cottage families have younger members for whom public transit and irregular timetables are not a disincentive.... although if you can afford a Muskoka cottage, you probably already bought your kids a car to get around.

Personally I would see this as an opportunity worth exploring rather than naysaying. It might prove to be a quirky service that goes against the broader wisdom.... but hey, that quirkyness kept the Havelock commuter dream alive for 35 years now, not to mention the post covid push for restoration of trains serving London and Kingston for a similar market.

- Paul
 
ShonTron said:
Northland will accept same-day sales at staffed stations and terminals (North Bay, Sudbury, etc.) and same-day online ticket sales.
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Completely fair point, I was just comparing it to a possible cottage country GO bus where you wouldn't have to book at all. GO's fare also doesn't change if you show up last minute, whereas I know booking VIA last minute can be pricey. I don't mean to naysay the new train as I too hope it is successful.
 
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