Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

Maybe GO can sell them some of their old bilevels and they can refurbish/convert them for their use. Or VIA's HEP cars.

As I have stated before, several times, the tracks are not in good enough shape. The top would be unusable due to swaying and the cost to bring the lines up to that would be too high to warrant it.

The HEP are denigrating AFAIK.

I wonder if we should assume that with Metrolinx being involved in this work along with Ontario Northland that there will be a split between the two where ONTC is the railway owner (e.g. track, signaling, freight operations, and refurbishment shop), and Metrolinx owns and looks after all passenger service related operations (i.e. staffing, fleet, stations). If that is the case one would expect that any passenger cars used would be the older existing equipment that was used on their test run, bi-levels, or future single deck fleet that would be used in the GO network as well. They should probably merge the bus operations into Metrolinx too. Economies of scale for HR, training, etc.

I hope not. It makes sense that it is CN/ONR crews that run them. It also makes sense to maintain the fleet either in North Bay or Cochrane.

 

[lenaitch]

I wonder if we should assume that with Metrolinx being involved in this work along with Ontario Northland that there will be a split between the two where ONTC is the railway owner (e.g. track, signaling, freight operations, and refurbishment shop), and Metrolinx owns and looks after all passenger service related operations (i.e. staffing, fleet, stations). If that is the case one would expect that any passenger cars used would be the older existing equipment that was used on their test run, bi-levels, or future single deck fleet that would be used in the GO network as well. They should probably merge the bus operations into Metrolinx too. Economies of scale for HR, training, etc.

I see no economies in trying to merge systems, one of which is very GTA-centric, and the other has bus terminals that stretch to Winnipeg. Additionally, rolling stock requirements for long haul vs. commuter rail are different and I see no advantage to separating the passenger fleet management, crewing , etc. from the rest of the ONR operations. In your example, the station staff at Timmins or Cochrane would actually be isolated from the rest of the Metrolinx structure and be orphans from ONR (in the case of Cochrane, actually be tenants in ONTC facilities at the station, which is also a commercial hotel and ONR rail operations facility.

Then they should extend presto to all of the transit agencies that connect to the train.

That would potentially be Timmins, North Bay and Timiskaming Shores. I simply don't see the value added angle to it. It's not like trying to merge or align two transit fare systems. The transit systems will potentially make one or two stops once every couple of days at their respective stations (possibly more if it is also an ONR bus stop). I suppose if nothing else, the more municipalities they can rope in, it helps to recover the exorbitant cost overruns in the card's development.

 

[crs1026]

I highly doubt the money earmarked for the service would cover significant track improvements, considering they will have to build a Timmins terminal, upgrade the associated trackage (the last few clicks of the line haven't been used in years), re-establish stations, buy/build rolling stock, and on and on. Keep in mind that any improvements between Washago and North Bay would be cutting a cheque to CN, and they seem to treat such payments from client users as a bit of a candy dish. I am guessing the Bala sub. to Washago is in pretty acceptable condition.

Actually, a source up ONR way has reported that there seems to be a ramping up of tie replacement work this spring, more than in recent years anyways.

AT $400 per tie, 250 ties per mile (one in twelve, that scope is just me pulling a number out of thin air for illustration) we are talking $1M for ten miles. Plus installation, then likely some rock, and then surfacing. Clearly $75M won't stretch that far given the other needs you mention. But we can assume that the track will be improved somewhat.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Actually, a source up ONR way has reported that there seems to be a ramping up of tie replacement work this spring, more than in recent years anyways.

AT $400 per tie, 250 ties per mile (one in twelve, that scope is just me pulling a number out of thin air for illustration) we are talking $1M for ten miles. Plus installation, then likely some rock, and then surfacing. Clearly $75M won't stretch that far given the other needs you mention. But we can assume that the track will be improved somewhat.

- Paul

I had no idea ties were that expensive but, then again, having bought hardwood recently, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

It will be interesting to see if the enhanced maintenance is related to the return of the Northlander. From what I have heard, their Kapuskasing sub. is pretty slow du to track conditions.

 

[crs1026]

I had no idea ties were that expensive but, then again, having bought hardwood recently, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

It will be interesting to see if the enhanced maintenance is related to the return of the Northlander. From what I have heard, their Kapuskasing sub. is pretty slow du to track conditions.

To be clear - I am likely a tad high with that number, but they have shot upwards lately and are certainly are three figures and not two. My intent was more to show that the numbers add up quickly for a route as long as this one.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I see no economies in trying to merge systems, one of which is very GTA-centric, and the other has bus terminals that stretch to Winnipeg. Additionally, rolling stock requirements for long haul vs. commuter rail are different and I see no advantage to separating the passenger fleet management, crewing , etc. from the rest of the ONR operations. In your example, the station staff at Timmins or Cochrane would actually be isolated from the rest of the Metrolinx structure and be orphans from ONR (in the case of Cochrane, actually be tenants in ONTC facilities at the station, which is also a commercial hotel and ONR rail operations facility.

That would potentially be Timmins, North Bay and Timiskaming Shores. I simply don't see the value added angle to it. It's not like trying to merge or align two transit fare systems. The transit systems will potentially make one or two stops once every couple of days at their respective stations (possibly more if it is also an ONR bus stop). I suppose if nothing else, the more municipalities they can rope in, it helps to recover the exorbitant cost overruns in the card's development.

If you only mean the Northlander. However, if you include the ONR bus... that includes Sudbury, Thunder Bay and even Ottawa. And then the messiness of Winnipeg.

Actually, a source up ONR way has reported that there seems to be a ramping up of tie replacement work this spring, more than in recent years anyways.

AT $400 per tie, 250 ties per mile (one in twelve, that scope is just me pulling a number out of thin air for illustration) we are talking $1M for ten miles. Plus installation, then likely some rock, and then surfacing. Clearly $75M won't stretch that far given the other needs you mention. But we can assume that the track will be improved somewhat.

- Paul

That also does not include the Newmarket Sub between Washago and North Bay which likely wouldn't be included in the ONR MOW plans.

I had no idea ties were that expensive but, then again, having bought hardwood recently, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

It will be interesting to see if the enhanced maintenance is related to the return of the Northlander. From what I have heard, their Kapuskasing sub. is pretty slow du to track conditions.

FYI, the Northlander won't use the Kap Sub even if it is extended to Cochrane.

To be clear - I am likely a tad high with that number, but they have shot upwards lately and are certainly are three figures and not two. My intent was more to show that the numbers add up quickly for a route as long as this one.

- Paul

I have heard those numbers per tie before, so if anything, it may be low now with inflation.

 

[lenaitch]

If you only mean the Northlander. However, if you include the ONR bus... that includes Sudbury, Thunder Bay and even Ottawa. And then the messiness of Winnipeg.

[/QUOTE]
Context is important. I was responding to a statement that Presto should be used by "all transit agencies that connect to the train".

FYI, the Northlander won't use the Kap Sub even if it is extended to Cochrane.

I know that. I was responding to a post that said the ONR was increasing track maintenance - period. There no claim that it was directly connected to the return of passenger service.

 

[smallspy]

As I have stated before, several times, the tracks are not in good enough shape. The top would be unusable due to swaying and the cost to bring the lines up to that would be too high to warrant it.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

Dan

Go for a drive. Look at the tracks visible from crossings of the ONR and CN Newmarket Sub. Then look at the GO tracks.

 

[smallspy]

Go for a drive. Look at the tracks visible from crossings of the ONR and CN Newmarket Sub. Then look at the GO tracks.

Nice strawman. Do you have a real argument to make?

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

Nice strawman. Do you have a real argument to make?

Dan

Ontario Northland train wreck blamed on weakened track

NEWS RELEASE ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION ************************* Ontario Northland releases investigation report NORTH BAY, ON - Ontario Northland has released a report into the cause of a March 30, 2007 derailment of one of its fre

www.sootoday.com

On article on a derailment about 15 years ago.

There are people who know, and then there are people who won't listen.

 

[smallspy]

Ontario Northland train wreck blamed on weakened track

NEWS RELEASE ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION ************************* Ontario Northland releases investigation report NORTH BAY, ON - Ontario Northland has released a report into the cause of a March 30, 2007 derailment of one of its fre

www.sootoday.com

On article on a derailment about 15 years ago.

There are people who know, and then there are people who won't listen.

Cool.

Still doesn't make your rumour real though.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

Cool.

Still doesn't make your rumour real though.

Dan

The information you are looking for does not exist for the public eye. So, as someone who does know much of the line, I can say that it isn't well suited for a bilevel car.

 

[Allandale25]

https://www.facebook.com/617330071/posts/10166274343680072

 

[Allandale25]

Northlander party positions noted this this article:

Ford pledges to restore Northlander passenger rail service, rebuild Highway 101

Ontario's Progressive Conservatives are promising improvements to road and rail transportation in northern Ontario, including a $75 million campaign pledge to restore the Northlander passenger rail service between Toronto and Timmins, Ont.

www.cp24.com