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Ontario Line (was Relief Line South, in Design)

Leo_Chan

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View attachment 126524
(There are 26 closures left to be planned for 2019-2020 to complete TTC’s contractual obligations for Eglinton Crosstown, on Line 1.)

A heads up point to remember should they start construction of the Relief Line. The above closures include work for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT AND Line 1 at the Eglinton Station. I would expect to see the very same closures at Osgoode Station, Queen Station (City Hall), and Pape Stations, when construction for the DRL is needed to connect with Lines 1 & 2.
And Science Centre on Line 5 and Don Mills on Line 4. Yup.
In the perfect world, these closures will happen from 2026-2030. While in our world, it’ll be from 2126-2130 :p.
 

MisterF

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So are we now judging transit systems using the Rob Ford Method? If it isn't subway it doesn't count as transit?
I never said anything of the sort.

This is now officially the Montreal Fantasy Subway thread. It can change it back in 10 years when we see progress on the DRL.



The exact definition of "rapid transit" has been debated 712 834 907 times on this site. It seems like most of UT (not everyone, though, there is still room for debate) thinks that grade separation is a requirement, which isn't unreasonable. This doesn't just mean subway, though. It could be at-grade, elevated, or in a tunnel. Just as long as it can go at its own speed unimpeded by red lights, cross-traffic and left-turning vehicles. The SRT, Ottawa LRT, the (ill-fated) Scarborough LRT, etc. would all count as Rapid Transit under this definition.

It's an easier metric to measure for comparison than rides per capita, non-auto mode share, service hours per capita, etc, and also because we are mainly concerned with whose is longer ;)
I personally like the way you described it, which is why I don't really consider the Finch LRT to be rapid transit. Some people would say that regular bus lanes counts while others say it has to be fully grade separated metro. In reality, rapid transit is a term that's used more flexibly in day to day use. So the debate will always be there.

The length of a system tends to correlate with how comprehensive a network is and how many people have ready access to it. Montreal, for example, has better subway coverage in its central area than Toronto. The DRL will go a long way to fixing that.
 

steveintoronto

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Maybe rename the DRL as Toronto's Pink line and construction will start tomorrow!
Even though Toronto is a laggard by world standards for transit infrastructure the last two generations, Montreal is no example to follow. Or New York. Toronto's problems are mostly political interference. Montreal and New York's problems run much deeper, pun fully intended, as do Boston's and some other US cities. Corruption has been an ongoing issue for many. Toronto's had problems there too (some GO stations have been cited by the prov auditor, for instance), but lack of political acumen has been the prime one.
 

MartinMtl

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Even though Toronto is a laggard by world standards for transit infrastructure the last two generations, Montreal is no example to follow. Or New York. Toronto's problems are mostly political interference. Montreal and New York's problems run much deeper, pun fully intended, as do Boston's and some other US cities. Corruption has been an ongoing issue for many. Toronto's had problems there too (some GO stations have been cited by the prov auditor, for instance), but lack of political acumen has been the prime one.
I'm reading this and I'm genuinely trying to understand how corruption could have played a bigger role in Montreal's lack of transit investments in the last decades, compare to lack of political will, and I don't get it. It seems to me that you are blaming every shortcomings in Montreal's development on corruption, as if that was the only and sole reason, and as if there was no corruption at any level, at all, in Toronto. Please, can you provide concrete exemple to support your suggestion? The biggest problem regarding Montreal's transit is the fact that provincial's election are not lost or win on the Montreal island, but in the regions, where the transit issue in Mtl is a non-issue. Even the metro in Laval was a more winning proposition for the provincial government than the blue line. So in that respect, I think that Montreal and Toronto are pretty much in the same boat.
 

Edward Skira

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Most of the Montreal corruption was stealing money from projects. The ones that are corrupt would love a project of this magnitude.

@MartinMtl please contact me.
 

steveintoronto

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I'm reading this and I'm genuinely trying to understand how corruption could have played a bigger role in Montreal's lack of transit investments in the last decades, compare to lack of political will, and I don't get it. It seems to me that you are blaming every shortcomings in Montreal's development on corruption, as if that was the only and sole reason, and as if there was no corruption at any level, at all, in Toronto. Please, can you provide concrete exemple to support your suggestion? The biggest problem regarding Montreal's transit is the fact that provincial's election are not lost or win on the Montreal island, but in the regions, where the transit issue in Mtl is a non-issue. Even the metro in Laval was a more winning proposition for the provincial government than the blue line. So in that respect, I think that Montreal and Toronto are pretty much in the same boat.
There's reams on-line with even the most cursory of searches. Start with "Montreal building trades corruption" to narrow down the issue being addressed in this string as that pertains to my claim of (gist) "not using Montreal as a comparator". Or NYC, who are working closely with Montreal, btw, with their both extensive anti-corruption units.

Here's an example from a series on Montreal corruption by Huffington Post:
Quebec Construction Corruption
Will The Charbonneau Commission Change Anything?

Terrance Oakey

The public is justified in asking our politicians what taxpayers will receive in response. Is this going to be another report that sits on a shelf, or will the political level now address the systemic issues that gave rise to the rot and corruption that so enthralled those who followed the proceedings?

Corruption In Quebec More Common Than Originally Thought: Report

CP

MONTREAL — Corruption and collusion in Quebec are far more prevalent than originally thought, says the Quebec judge who oversaw a lengthy probe into the province's construction industry. "This investi...

Competition Bureau Of Canada Raids Construction Companies

CP

MONTREAL - The Competition Bureau of Canada says it is conducting seizures at several construction firms in the Montreal area today.The bureau is looking into allegations of an anti-competitive agreem...

Engineering Giant Linked To Quebec Corruption

CP

MONTREAL – A number of major engineering firms — including global giant SNC-Lavalin — participated in a collusion scheme to raise the price of construction projects in Quebec, the head of one company...

'Donnie Brasco' Testifies At Quebec Corruption Probe

CP

MONTREAL - Quebecers might be shocked by reports of Mafia control over the construction industry, which is allegedly so rife with corruption and collusion and inflated costs that the provincial govern...

Will 'Donnie Brasco' Take The Stand In Quebec Corruption Probe?

CP

MONTREAL - The underworld will be placed under the microscope this fall when Quebec's corruption inquiry begins probing links between the construction industry and organized crime.The inquiry head als...

Organized Crime, Kickbacks And Construction: Quebec Probe Begins

CP

MONTREAL - A public inquiry with possibly devastating political ramifications has begun in Quebec with the presiding judge outlining the ambitious task before her: to uncover a network of corruption i...

Guess Who Got Fed Stimulus Cash In Quebec?

CP

MONTREAL - Some of the public money set aside for Canada's economic recovery has ended up in the hands of companies and individuals accused of taking part in an elaborate collusion scheme in Quebec.An...

Break-In At Home Of Judge Heading Corruption Probe

CP

MONTREAL - A break-in at the home of the Quebec judge who will head an inquiry into allegations of construction corruption has resulted in stolen jewelry.An inquiry spokesman says no documents related...

In About-Face, Charest Gives Teeth To Corruption Probe

CBC

The Charest government has made another about-face over the inquiry into allegations of corruption in the construction industry. The judge in charge of the commission will now have full legal powers...

Quebec Construction Workers Walk Off Job

CBC

Quebec's labour minister "won't back down" from plans to change rules governing construction unions in the province, despite being personally threatened and facing an illegal work stoppage Monday that...

Quebec Corruption Report Just The Beginning, Author Says

CP

QUEBEC - The author of a devastating report on corruption in Quebec will have a busy few days meeting with public officials to elaborate on findings that have created shockwaves in the province.Jacque...

SNC-Lavalin CEO Opposes Probe Into Construction Biz Corruption

CP

MONTREAL - The head of engineering giant SNC-Lavalin said Monday a report on alleged corruption in Quebec's construction industry raises "troubling" issues, but not enough to warrant a public inquiry....
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/news/quebec-construction-corruption/

Let me repeat: Montreal is not an apt comparator for Toronto. Toronto is not squeaky clean, I never claimed otherwise, in fact pointed to some GO fiascos, and there have been some in TTC subway construction to, but *nothing* on the scale of Montreal.


 

steveintoronto

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According to La Presse, Ottawa seems interested in the Pink Metro Line via Infrastructure Bank.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/g...esse_B13b_grand-montreal_4233637_section_POS4

Like it or not, that's more press than the DRL is getting because we're too busy wasting time on Smarttrack
Thanks for 'heads up' but I see this as unlikely. The Infrastructure Bank has given politicos a convenient way to state: "Sounds good, let's see what the IB says". This is going to be one of the pitfalls of the CIB once it's up and running. It's the 'kick the can down the road' repository bank.

From the article you link:
[...]
Cost effective, really?

Professor Richard Shearmur, an expert in urban planning at McGill University, points out that there are few public transit systems that make a profit, "in Canada or elsewhere in the world".

"This kind of infrastructure generates a lot of spin-offs for the city as a whole, but it's very difficult for investors to cash in."

He doubted that the increase in property prices around future stations could be a sufficient argument for the CIB. "We've talked a lot about this, but I would say that the few cases in the world where land appreciation really seems to make a big contribution to infrastructure, it's in places like Hong Kong, Singapore or London, where land value is a lot bigger than in Montreal, "he said.

Common "Vision"

Minister Amarjeet Sohi has made no commitment to fund the Pink Line and is still waiting to receive details from the new Plant Administration. He also recalled that BIC would make independent decisions in all projects it chooses to study.

Mr. Sohi emphasized the importance of the BIC having the appropriate "expertise". This will allow the Bank "to do the kind of rigorous analysis on a particular project to understand the complexity, but also the sources of revenue that could potentially be attached to this particular project."

The minister said that the federal government has already granted $ 1.3 billion for the Réseau électrique métropolitain (REM), and that it will finance part of the extension of the blue line. "What I can say is that Mayor Plante's vision for public transportation is really aligned with ours," he summed up.
https://translate.google.ca/transla...du-canada-pourrait-intervenir.php&prev=search

Sohi even used air-freshener after washing his hands. How convenient...

The Relief Line is also an unlikely candidate for private investment funds....which is why the Province is resigned to fully funding it (with some Fed contribution) directly from general coffers. There is a small chance of private investment participation if it can be used by privately funded rail projects if it's built to RER specs, but that's a whole other rusty can of worms.

As a side-note, unless that translation was provided by laPresse themselves, I'm marvelling at the quality of translation if by software.
 

WislaHD

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Wait, @steveintoronto why would private investment stay away from the Relief Line? It has a better BCA than the vast majority of rapid transit projects that are proposed in this country.

You think because of the very high likelyhood of cost escalations on the project? Could that not be remedied by tacking on a "provincial/municipal level of government is responsible for cost over-runs" provision?
 

steveintoronto

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Wait, @steveintoronto why would private investment stay away from the Relief Line?
You think because of the very high likelyhood of cost escalations on the project?
Not cost escalations, if done right, that shouldn't occur (Crosstown so far is *claimed* to be on budget) but therein lies the business case. In a PPP (in whatever form) like this, if conceived well, once a bidder has stated a price, the cost over-runs are theirs. They bid to build it to meet the objective. So it may not be a classic 'private investment' case where operating and building costs are recovered and show a profit, but private bidding on the government's stated terms, whether or not the gov agency sees more than return on cost.

Metrolinx are now doing many projects this way, so that is a distinct possibility. As the point relates to the Canada Investment Bank, where private investment is touted to be leveraged 4:1 private to government, it's almost a given that the cases will be ones that guarantee a profit after a given number of years, albeit with some risk, that amount of risk to be determined in each case as to how much *disproportionately* that the Gov't underwrites.
 

Edward Skira

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So much for the naysayers. Good to hear. With a provincial election on the horizon expect a big announcement for this and Richmond Hill.
 

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