Ontario Line North of Eglinton (was Relief Line North) (Speculation)

[JSF-1]

I highly doubt that's the extension for Ontario Line West. It follows the Waterfront West LRT so perfectly that... well that's probably what that is.

You're probably right, it is the WWLRT. I somehow forgot that exists. Random fact to depress you: The idea for a Waterfront West LRT was first proposed in 1992 as an extension of the 509 Harbourfront (then known as the 604 Harbourfront) along Lake shore Blvd. to Humber Loop. It was meant to address the god awful service on the western half of the 501 Queen after it absorbed the 507 Long Branch. We've been talking about this line for nearly 30 years.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I definitely agree with turning east, but given that RH GO electrification seems to be a non-starter, it's worth noting that this is a place that branching would work pretty well.

drawing on a map is fun so: Added some branches to my previous concept. Blue is elevated, purple is underground, and Green is at grade

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Not bad, but in taking the north end east, over to Downtown Markham (where there's already GO), you are directly avoiding the biggest employment node in south York Region.

(Yeah, you can easily travel east/west on Viva to connect with the subways but the Don Mills LRT was going to go straight up into the Beaver Creek area and that's where I'd suggest this hypothetical line would go. You're just barely clipping the very east edge of the employment node [which also includes Seneca College])

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Not bad, but in taking the north end east, over to Downtown Markham (where there's already GO), you are directly avoiding the biggest employment node in south York Region.

View attachment 331548

(Yeah, you can easily travel east/west on Viva to connect with the subways but the Don Mills LRT was going to go straight up into the Beaver Creek area and that's where I'd suggest this hypothetical line would go. You're just barely clipping the very east edge of the employment node [which also includes Seneca College])

I see the temptation to try and serve the east/west demand given a branching OL, but the options seem to all be pretty serious compromises to at least two of the branches, with the most reasonable versions completely missing the 407/404 area. We've already got pretty good rapid infrastructure in the Hwy 7 rapidway, and plans for real, uncompromised east/west regional service on the 407. In other words, this would be better served by running more VIVA and advancing 407 station construction, and you wouldn't be compromising the OL extension in the process.

 

[Rainforest]

I can see the idea; though that's not what they drew, of course.......

But, if that's true, as with much of that map, there are some serious questions about the 'how' even at the highest conceptual level.

There is no ROW available (rail, road or hydro) following that alignment.

You could, arguably, follow the rail ROW to Obico and use that go north to Kipling.

Then follow the Kipling Hydro Corridor to Eglinton, then shift there to hit the airport.

Bit awkward, ends up serving some odd locales en route and missing others.

But the alternative is deep tunneling.

****

If many of us here feel one of two potential 'Achilles heels' for the Ontario Line is capacity...........

How could one conceive of building the station sizes and train capacities they have and then build this route?

Very odd.

The ROW can be found; that's the 407 / 427 / 409. OL trains will be agile enough to fit in or over the medians.

But the demand wouldn't match, the downtown OL should have several times higher usage than any line from Pearson to RHC. Plus, it would be very hard to manage such a long line.

Maybe, them using the same color and dash style for the line from downtown to RHC and the one from RHC to Pearson doesn't actually imply running a single line, but rather just using the same train technology for two separate lines?

 

[ARG1]

The ROW can be found; that's the 407 / 427 / 409. OL trains will be agile enough to fit in or over the medians.

But the demand wouldn't match, the downtown OL should have several times higher usage than any line from Pearson to RHC. Plus, it would be very hard to manage such a long line.

Maybe, them using the same color and dash style for the line from downtown to RHC and the one from RHC to Pearson doesn't actually imply running a single line, but rather just using the same train technology for two separate lines?

That would make sense however the language doesn't exactly add up. They call it an "Ontario Line Loop", implying something far more long distance, and its paralleled by a that cross regional line. What's more probably is that the line is meant to travel down more dense corridors like Highway 7 and other local streets, and not highway medians.

 

[nfitz]

I think line 3 does well to show the downsides of building rapid transit in a rail ROW just because it's cheap. There are no real destinations along the Richmond Hill line and it does well to avoid all the density at Sheppard and don mills, and Sheppard and Bayview, with Leslie being far less built up, with only an IKEA as an attractive destination.

So you are saying there's better development opportunities for Option 3 up the Richmond Hill Line?

 

[Bureaucromancer]

That would make sense however the language doesn't exactly add up. They call it an "Ontario Line Loop", implying something far more long distance, and its paralleled by a that cross regional line. What's more probably is that the line is meant to travel down more dense corridors like Highway 7 and other local streets, and not highway medians.

Considering the government we've got, the philosophy applied to the OL so far and what EAs exist in terms of the 407, I'm honestly more inclined to suspect that they are picturing trains in medians, with an eyes far more focused on cost than the quality of the line created.

As far as a that "loop" goes though... As bad as an actual loop line goes, I can see a really good case for a project that is to the Ontario Line as REM de l'Est is to REM, with short platforms and roughly the same technology otherwise.

On a separate note, I'm intrigued by what might be done with a Queensway branch of the OL in terms of integration with the Bloor Danforth and a 427 line. I see a few possibilities, but they all seem to fall into the same trap of duplicating construction somewhere or other in Etobicoke or having a really ugly double transfer somewhere. My inclination is actually to suggest that it should approach Sherway from the south, follow West Mall and the rail corridor to the 427 and terminate at Renforth Station, while the BD would be extended through Obico Yard to a new station as Queensway for direct transfers... Even that of course builds a double north/south link between Bloor and the Queensway, but can at least avoid duplication before a 427 extension if stage 1 is Sherway only, and reuses yard trackage that's very likely to be built in any case.

I suppose ultimately the above is a big part of why my actual suggestion would be to NOT build this branch, but build the 427 corridor as either a busway extension of the Mississauga Transitway intended to integrate with the 407 project, or along the lines of Eglinton West, as a low floor LRT built to light metro standards alongside streetcar branches on Queensway and from Kipling to Queensway via Obico.
ie

 

[ARG1]

Considering the government we've got, the philosophy applied to the OL so far and what EAs exist in terms of the 407, I'm honestly more inclined to suspect that they are picturing trains in medians, with an eyes far more focused on cost than the quality of the line created.

As far as a that "loop" goes though... As bad as an actual loop line goes, I can see a really good case for a project that is to the Ontario Line as REM de l'Est is to REM, with short platforms and roughly the same technology otherwise.

I also bring it up because of this "East-West Line" that they drew parallel to the Ontario Line between RHC and Pearson, that line seems to present itself more as a longer distance service which would use the highway medians, or at least the allignment presented for the 407 Transitway. Ultimately I think my ideal setup would be having as you suggested, terminate OL at Highway 7, then have a 407 REM run using the same technology East-West in the median or running around along the sides of the line connecting to various hubs like Bridge Center, Unionville, and Highway 407, however this isn't what I'm seeing here with this document, and while your interpretation makes some sense, I have to say that due to the presence of the Oakville-Pickering Line, your interpretation seems... off.

 

[KhalilHeron]

So you are saying there's better development opportunities for Option 3 up the Richmond Hill Line?

That's definitely a good point as there is more land ripe for redevelopment along the Richmond hill line as opposed to the Don mills alignment from Lawrence to Sheppard, although most of this land is still within a kilometre and a few potential don mills alignment stations, which for almost all properties is no more than 200m farther than from potential Richmond hill alignments stations. In fact, most of the land (I'm thinking specifically the area along the Richmond hill line at york mills) is just as close if not closer to potential don mills stations than to Richmond hill ones. North of sheppard it really depends on what alignment you take but my chosen alignment goes through a lot more industrial and commercial areas that can be redeveloped as opposed to the Richmond Hill line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Above ground in two phases. 1 Eglinton to Sheppard 2 Sheppard to Steeles or Highway 7.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I

I’ve always liked the idea of the OL turning up differin and running up to Eglinton or so.

I prefer Roncesvalles and Weston imo.

 

[11th]

That's definitely a good point as there is more land ripe for redevelopment along the Richmond hill line as opposed to the Don mills alignment from Lawrence to Sheppard, although most of this land is still within a kilometre and a few potential don mills alignment stations, which for almost all properties is no more than 200m farther than from potential Richmond hill alignments stations. In fact, most of the land (I'm thinking specifically the area along the Richmond hill line at york mills) is just as close if not closer to potential don mills stations than to Richmond hill ones. North of sheppard it really depends on what alignment you take but my chosen alignment goes through a lot more industrial and commercial areas that can be redeveloped as opposed to the Richmond Hill line.

My take on this, at York Mills and Don Mills it's green space on at least two quadrants - very limited development potential; while at the Richmond Hill corridor, at least the industrial strip along Leslie is also within reasonable distance. The location is just more centralized.

 

[tsm1072]

Above ground in two phases. 1 Eglinton to Sheppard 2 Sheppard to Steeles or Highway 7.

I think 3 phases are more likely. Phase 1 to Sheppard. Phase 2 to Steeles, shifting from Don Mills to the 404 at Seneca. Phase 3 is along the 404 to Hwy 7, with a new MSF around Buttonville.

 

[ARG1]

I think 3 phases are more likely. Phase 1 to Sheppard. Phase 2 to Steeles, shifting from Don Mills to the 404 at Seneca. Phase 3 is along the 404 to Hwy 7, with a new MSF around Buttonville.

Buttonville? What is it doing all the way up there?