Ontario Line Extension West of Ontario Place (Speculation)

[innsertnamehere]

Yup, PCs will win at this point, it’s a question of minority or majority only now.

 

[nfitz]

Yup, PCs will win at this point, it’s a question of minority or majority only now.

A minority would be a PC loss - I don't see any other party supporting them in the house.

Though I don't think any of the parties is promising a west extension of the Ontario line - so perhaps moot.

 

[Steve X]

Let's see if the PC would have any new subway announcement soon. Perhaps Sheppard extension would be on top of the list? I don't see an announcement to extend the OL happening till the finalize what kind of trains they will use.

 

[robmausser]

Does anyone know the Liberal or NDP's official statement on current transit work? They are proposing some things I like (save the ORBY etc) but I want to hear from them an official campaign promise that they won't try to muck about with the Ontario Line etc and delay things further. There is a large swath of Liberal voters in the Leslieville areas next to the proposed GO corridor running Ontario Line portions, and I don't want them to bow to the NIMBYS and alter that plan to a tunnelled alignment that will push this project into the 2040s or something.

Especially with Del Duca at the helm, he will want so many photos ops to a changed alignment the project won't be done until the 2050s.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Does anyone know the Liberal or NDP's official statement on current transit work? They are proposing some things I like (save the ORBY etc) but I want to hear from them an official campaign promise that they won't try to muck about with the Ontario Line etc and delay things further. There is a large swath of Liberal voters in the Leslieville areas next to the proposed GO corridor running Ontario Line portions, and I don't want them to bow to the NIMBYS and alter that plan to a tunnelled alignment that will push this project into the 2040s or something.

Especially with Del Duca at the helm, he will want so many photos ops to a changed alignment the project won't be done until the 2050s.

The Liberal Platform states:

"As well, for too long changing governments in Ontario have ripped up or ignored existing transit plans, delaying progress and contributing to more gridlock and pollution and higher costs. We’ll put an end to political games by maintaining all existing funded transit plans – getting shovels in the ground over the next four years"

 

[FW36]

My idea for a western extension.

 

[junctionist]

I think the line should have a station somewhere in the heart of Parkdale. It's among the city's densest neighbourhoods and has a relatively rare "apartment neighbourhood" zoning designation in some parts. It seems like precisely the kind of neighbourhood that should have rapid transit access.

 

[AlxOptimism]

Reviving this thread with a speculative map of the Ontario Line's most likely future westward expansion paths!

I think building elevated next to the Gardiner is a perfect opportunity to build a flying wye junction south of Parkside drive. I've omitted a direct connection to Jane via Swansea as it would not be well served by said junction.

This would enable service to be run from Kipling to Bloor (and beyond), creating new E-W redundancy in the system which would be a LIFESAVER during B-D closures and interruptions. Ideally this could all be built cheaply as it could all be at grade or elevated excluding two short tunneled sections from Mimico to Islington & Queensway and Parkside Drive to BD (and then tunneled up Dufferin). Realistically only one of the Skye Blue and Yellow extensions would be built (this may be operationally better as well). I think building interlined is optimal with the automated metro technology of the OL (see the highly branding nature of the REM) and Toronto's geography.


YES this is highly speculative but there seemed to be some appetite for his sort of thing in the Ontario Line thread as of late

 

[Bureaucromancer]

meh; its nice if you accept tunneling everywhere, but thats pretty antithetical to both the design philosophy of the OL, what's happened on Yonge Northn and (imo anyway) the way we should be trying to do rapid transit.

 

[AlxOptimism]

meh; its nice if you accept tunneling everywhere, but thats pretty antithetical to both the design philosophy of the OL, what's happened on Yonge Northn and (imo anyway) the way we should be trying to do rapid transit.

There's only ~4.1km of tunnels in my map outside of the yellow extension... don't really see how you build rail on Dufferin without tunneling tbh

 

[Ssmith12]

Reviving this thread with a speculative map of the Ontario Line's most likely future westward expansion paths!
View attachment 441541

I think building elevated next to the Gardiner is a perfect opportunity to build a flying wye junction south of Parkside drive. I've omitted a direct connection to Jane via Swansea as it would not be well served by said junction.

View attachment 441544

This would enable service to be run from Kipling to Bloor (and beyond), creating new E-W redundancy in the system which would be a LIFESAVER during B-D closures and interruptions. Ideally this could all be built cheaply as it could all be at grade or elevated excluding two short tunneled sAsections from Mimico to Islington & Queensway and Parkside Drive to BD (and then tunneled up Dufferin). Realistically only one of the Skye Blue and Yellow extensions would be built (this may be operationally better as well). I think building interlined is optimal with the automated metro technology of the OL (see the highly branding nature of the REM) and Toronto's geography.


YES this is highly speculative but there seemed to be some appetite for his sort of thing in the Ontario Line thread as of late

Assuming this Etobicoke south line is in a universe where the 501 streetcar is upgraded to a proper LRT with ROW, it still is honestly a bizarre alignment. Firstly the four right angle turns would be detrimental to headways, while not really hitting any important nodes in the area. The whole western half would be through either industrial land or very suburban neighborhoods and only really generating trips out of Sherway. East of Royal York, the line entirely follows the Lakeshore west GO Line, and with the Park Lawn GO station in the works this level of duplication is overkill for a still (while rapidly) developing region. This alignment seems to get the negatives from both a wholly Queensway alignment and a Lakeshore west alignment without many of the positives.

 

[Ssmith12]

Let's see if the PC would have any new subway announcement soon. Perhaps Sheppard extension would be on top of the list? I don't see an announcement to extend the OL happening till the finalize what kind of trains they will use.

I imagine with the Eglington west tunneling already in the works, that post line 5 and Finch west completion the Sheppard extension is next up. As much as I would like to see the Waterfront LRT get the funding it needs, subways are always going to be fords priority.

 

[Ssmith12]

The alignment of the Ontario line seems like it will largely be dictated by what we (the Ontario Government) want it to do/to be. A Dufferin subway is frankly a no-brainer; we have a smorgas board of alignment options for new downtown subways because we likely need more than just one. However, as a provincial project, there is an incentive for the Ontario Line to serve a wide catchment area and act as a connector service rather than one that will primarily be generating its own ridership along the route. It will certainly do this, but not in the same way as, say, Line 1 or 2 which have local users and transfer riders. The reality is, there are some things which are true about the Ontario Line:
1. It will relieve Lines 1, 2 and 5 (transferring to line 1 primarily)
2. It will relieve Union station from some GO riders via Exhibition and East Harbour
3. It will partially relieve the 501 Queen streetcar
4. Relief of Bloor/Yonge and possibly Yonge/Eglinton
But this is it. The OL is more of a relief service than the Relief Line itself, with more connections and stations but less local connectivity and contiguity. That's all well and good, but it gives insight into the design logic of the Ontario Line. Fast forward to the 2051 plan and there is a clear intention to connect at Kipling somehow, then the airport, and circle around a loop and connect the simpler Northeast Don Mills segment. This makes it clear to me that the OL is going to primarily function as a relief line for the entire network, rightly or wrongly, by connecting at Kipling to divert the Mississagan volumes. With that in mind, the Humber bay alignment seems inevitable. It probably won't duplicate all of LSW, but the OL will be very functional and transfer-oriented. This has been made clear by the various design decisions on the line's route.

As mentioned before, the local contiguity of the alignment is inferior to the relief line, because it does not linearly follow Queen street. Well, this is where that functional component comes into play. Queen st itself merits a subway like Bloor, probably more so. We are not providing this with the OL. I am not going to repeat the arguments of old here, but it is hard to deny many stretches of Queen st will be more poorly serviced now than with the RL. This is fine, but it is a core detail of what differentiates the OL from the RL. The western bit of the RL would have taken Queen, and could have easily gone up Dufferin or Roncesvalles as a local service, like much of Line 2. The Ontario Line outright does not intend to service Queen on a local level however, that much is clear. The circuity of its alignment, the transfer points, and the relatively short section on Queen st itself makes it inefficient for local trips. It will probably generate enough ridership through transfers alone, so extending into a high-ridership corridor just doesn't make sense for the Ontario Government. If the TTC spearheaded the OL/RL, this would be a different story as different priorities would come into play.

Anyway, my point is we likely will not see the Ontario Line go up Dufferin. I do not think this project has regional implications, unlike what some posters have said. This is exactly why it is not going to travel up Dufferin; it will not have much relief potential, and will only hinder the intended function of the OL by bringing full trains to Exhibition and creating a circuitous route for Dufferin commuters or Line 2 transfers. This should not be confused with the need for a Dufferin subway; in fact, I would be more than content with allowing the city/TTC to design and build a conventional long and heavy subway on the street. What is likely needed however is a completely different E/W tunnel for such a line. The OL will be at capacity eventually, and feeding a Dufferin branch into it would cause huge issues. I do think the OL has sufficient capacity for its current plans (even the planned extensions), but its capacity will be limited by its tight 90-sec headways in the future, unlike our traditional subways which can continue to be pushed to their limits with better signalling.

With the design logic of the OL in mind and the intended outcomes of its completed 'loop', I think its clear we will not see a Dufferin alignment on the Ontario Line. Rather, we will likely see some pressure from the city and locals for a subway by the end of the decade, when much of our transit expansions will be complete. The OL will not relieve the inner city of capacity issues in the west, and GO may well make it worse with transfers at Dundas West. If I were the TTC, I would be drafting plans for a Dufferin subway right now. Keep it separate from the more regional plans, as that is for the OL. I would prefer to have the Dufferin subway go down Dundas or King, as the streetcars offer a good insight into where our transportation corridors ought to generally go. The King alignment should preferably intersect with the OL at Bathurst, but not through-run with it for any sections. Unlike the RL, I would not be opposed to a shorter Dufferin subway that only goes as far as Line 1 in the east, unless an infill GO station occurs at Cherry st or somewhere in that area. Crossing the Don is unnecessary, and I legitimately think that East Toronto/East York will be ok for transit for the next decade or two. The Dufferin subway should seek to serve Dufferin, and Dufferin only until we need to worry about a NW extension to perhaps Jane or Rexdale. As for the OL, sending it down LSW is the most financially feasible and does offer some good connectivity opportunities, probably on the cheap as well. Plus, lets not forget Doug is an Etobicoke resident. Why would he miss a chance to send another project through it? The whole thing can be at-grade or elevated, while a Dufferin subway is most certainly going to be bored or C&C if we're lucky. The Government probably figures they can push off Dufferin transit by taking the lowest fruit first, sending OL far west and perhaps expanding the King st pilot to more lines to help push a Dufferin subway off for another few terms. Even though I am pessimistic about a Dufferin OL happening, I am still optimistic that Dufferin will see a subway. As we have seen here and worldwide, when transportation pressures become too much to handle, something gives and we build what is necessary, often with less regard for cost once it gets to those crucial levels. With that, we probably won't have to cross our fingers for long.

Below is my interpretation of a subdued subway plan for Downtown Toronto, one that is not overly predictive with far-off extensions for the Dufferin subway but rather one which takes its needs into account alongside the OL. I included a King alignment, Dundas alignment, and a fantasy with both (doing different things, of course). Feedback is appreciated!
View attachment 397142View attachment 397143View attachment 397145

When you say the the OL west extension will likely be sent down Lakeshore west, are you referring to only the section east of Sunnyside? Just asking as the alignment you have shown seems to display it running along the queensway after the humber loop.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The northwest railway corridor will be getting busy. May not be a need for a northwest extension for the Ontario Line.

A brand new GTA GO train line is officially one step closer to reality​

From link.




From link.

View attachment 376000

They could add other GO stations south of Weston and Bloor that would serve the purpose as an Ontario Line northwest extension. Which they are already doing with Mt. Dennis, Stockyards, Calendonia, Bloor-Lansdowne, Liberty Village, Spadina-Front, and maybe others, using different GO Train lines along the same track corridor.

The most recent proposal from Metrolinx (granted it was more that 5 yrs ago) was to veer onto CN Halton Sub and use the Barrie corridor tracks, and not use the Kitchener/Weston tracks? Has the plan changed again.

This is the more logical routing IMHO though.

 

[rbt]

The most recent proposal from Metrolinx (granted it was more that 5 yrs ago) was to veer onto CN Halton Sub and use the Barrie corridor tracks, and not use the Kitchener/Weston tracks? Has the plan changed again.

The Barrie corridor was the cheapest option from a capital investment standpoint (fewest track/corridor upgrades required) , so I can see why the Minister of Transportation would lean that way.

https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/Bolton_Commuter_Rail_Feasibility_Study_2010_EN.pdf

Personally, I don't see CN allowing it for anything more than trivial service.