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Ontario Flag needs replacing

torontologist said:
Pardon my MS Paint skills, but I always imagined an Ontario flag like this. It's basically Nigeria's flag with a trillium. We wouldn't even have to repaint the GO trains!
Click to expand...

I think it'd be cool to have a flag with a trillium but also one that incorporates the water or lake as an element in the flag (eg. perhaps something more like Tanzania's flag than Nigeria's), since Ontario comes from an Iroquoian word meaning great, or beautiful lake/waters.
 
Welcome to anyone who has picked up this forum thread to one of the more trivial discussions. I honestly didn't realise just how many of my fellow Canadians were insecure in their identity and had huge post-colonial chips on their shoulders. If I read 'we are not British' again, I will - honestly - wet myself laughing. For a country walking a fine cultural line between being Americans, that is absolutely priceless. One of the very few public icons of our distinctiveness is the flag of Ontario. Shock horror, the Union Jack is on it. That must mean we are British, just like Hawaiians are British too because they have a very similar flag. To those of you unable or unwilling to learn the slightest thing about our interesting and unique history, get a grip. To those of you, like me, who roll their eyes or drop their jaw at this simple minded discussion, take heed. Smart people are on your side.

To an outsider, one would never know that Canada is 150 years old. You see, the attempted debate on the Ontario flag is but a symptom of a wider problem that afflicts a certain type of person. In most spheres of Canadian life from politics, government, the law, education, religion, the armed forces, organised labour all the way down to our ever present pipe bands, the British influence has been fundamental to shaping modern Canada.

Yet, there is an inability amongst small elements of our society who cannot meaningfully engage with this legacy. British symbols, emblems and traditions are but colonial kindling for their nationalist bonfire. Yet, over 50 years after the adoption of our National Flag, casting aside our traditional symbols and emblems is less of a revolutionary act than one of significant cultural and historical vandalism. Our British heritage is part of our Canadian identity – regardless of ethnicity, religion or colour - they are not mutually exclusive. British (and French) emblems are legitimate Canadian symbols. Get over it.

We have the red and white Maple Leaf Flag that represents us all and declares to the wider world that we are Canadians. But if the National Flag reflects our current society, our provincial and territorial flags can reflect our specific histories and origins. And it is the diversity of the latter flags that show how special and unique we are as a country. Getting rid of our current provincial flag out of some post-colonial spite vastly increases the risk of hollowing out our history and our national story – we would lose what makes us unique and distinct. Effectively, we would be erasing the 49th parallel border.

The actions of a mature nation secure in its identity would be to leave well enough alone and to fly our provincial flags with pride. We are Canadian and proud of it.
 
We have the red and white Maple Leaf Flag that represents us all and declares to the wider world that we are Canadians. But if the National Flag reflects our current society, our provincial and territorial flags can reflect our specific histories and origins. And it is the diversity of the latter flags that show how special and unique we are as a country. Getting rid of our current provincial flag out of some post-colonial spite vastly increases the risk of hollowing out our history and our national story – we would lose what makes us unique and distinct. Effectively, we would be erasing the 49th parallel border.

The actions of a mature nation secure in its identity would be to leave well enough alone and to fly our provincial flags with pride. We are Canadian and proud of it.
Click to expand...

How is it that only the national flag reflects our current (national) society and that somehow provincial flags are relegated to specific histories? And just how does diversity of the latter flags (not forgetting for a moment that no one is proposing to new flags to somehow be utterly monotonous nor reflective of history) hollow out our national story, much less erasing the border?

The actions of a mature nation chose a new flag - those who are reactionary against that chose to adopt what was abandoned in 1964 as an act of protest. That is the reality of the current Ontario flag.

AoD
 
And another thing…the Union Jack has been flying over Ontario longer than any other part of Canada. The Hudson’s Bay Company was granted the right to fly the Red Ensign (same as Ontario flag but with white letter ‘HBC’ where our provincial shield is) in 1682 (Wikipedia). Given that the HBC set up trading posts in what is now Ontario at the end of the 1600s, the historical continuity is huge. The Union Jack has flown in Ontario for over 3 centuries, is that a record?? AWESOME! :D

ca_hbc.jpg
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
How is it that only the national flag reflects our current (national) society and that somehow provincial flags are relegated to specific histories? And just how does diversity of the latter flags (not forgetting for a moment that no one is proposing to new flags to somehow be utterly monotonous nor reflective of history) hollow out our national story, much less erasing the border.

The actions of a mature nation chose a new flag - those who are reactionary against that chose to adopt what was abandoned in 1964 as an act of protest. That is the reality of the current Ontario flag.

AoD
Click to expand...

Have a think about your national/provincial identity question again. Look at the flags of our provincial and territorial flags as well.

I don't really buy the 'good guys / reactionary guys' narrative of the 1960s flag debates. We forget how divided opinion was and there is literature that the adoption of the Red Ensign in Ontario smoothed acceptance of our new National Flag. The Ontario Flag was less a flag of protest or 'revenge' so much as a symbol of reconciliation. Quite astute and a far sighted move for the provincial government at the time. Anyhow, so far as I am concerned both flags are legitimate emblems of Canadian nationhood.

Of course, anyone can find fault with any of our flags. Doesn't the Quebec flag ignore the Anglo, non French element? the Nova Scotian those not of Scottish heritage...blah, blah. As for the white male phalic symbolism of the Maple Leaf..... there is no limit to silliness, eh?

Ultimately, let's leave well enough alone. As a mature, confident Canadian I cherish the fleur de lis, Inuit land marker, BC's sunburst design and the Union Jack as all being legitimate symbols of our nationhood.
 
Impartial Observer said:
I don't really buy the 'good guys / reactionary guys' narrative of the 1960s flag debates. We forget how divided opinion was and there is literature that the adoption of the Red Ensign in Ontario smoothed acceptance of our new National Flag. The Ontario Flag was less a flag of protest or 'revenge' so much as a symbol of reconciliation. Quite astute and a far sighted move for the provincial government at the time. Anyhow, so far as I am concerned both flags are legitimate emblems of Canadian nationhood.
Click to expand...

It was. The fact that Ontario never had a official flag before, and it only uses part of the official Coat of Arms for Ontario, shows how fast they could throw something together to spite the removal of the Union Jack.

Impartial Observer said:
Of course, anyone can find fault with any of our flags. Doesn't the Quebec flag ignore the Anglo, non French element? the Nova Scotian those not of Scottish heritage...blah, blah. As for the white male phalic symbolism of the Maple Leaf..... there is no limit to silliness, eh?
Click to expand...

Nova Scotia flag is a inverted version of the St Andrew's Cross, but its different enough that its not considers the same flag of Scotland.

But we've always had a symbol of our British heritage in Ontario's Coat of Arms, if you looked closely, the Cross of Saint George is right above the three maple leafs, and has been there since 1868 to denote the same thing the Union Jack does.

In short, having the Union Jack will always be part of our history, but we must move on.
 
On the one hand...........I'd like to dismiss this as an unimportant topic. Mostly, because it focuses on symbolism, which be it current or historic is just that......symbolism, as opposed to substance.

A great flag doesn't make for a better healthcare system or wiser international relations or better fiscal policy, nor does a poor one make any of those things worse.

That said, Flags do act as a form of identification or branding, both to the broader world and to one's own population.

They therefore have some commercial value (trade/investment etc.) as well as some strategic value for what focus or mindset they may inspire, in whole or in part in one's domestic population.

The national flag has some fairly readable symbolism to the average person............Maple Leaf......... maple tree (link to our actual geography....even if the leaf shape is wrong....but I digress)....

An association might be drawn w/nature, or maple syrup, or peacefulness. That's all overkill.....its a symbol and only imbued w/meaning by its viewer.......but those seems as plausible as anything.

Assuming we agree that symbols hold that type of value/purpose.............does the current Ontario Flag meet that standard?

My instinct is to say no.

One wouldn't expect it to be recognized the world over...........but one might hope for instant recognition within Canada and Ontario, and perhaps in some U.S. border states....

I'm willing to bet that the recognition factor would be disappointingly low. Regardless of how one feels about what's on the flag now, if others have no idea it is Ontario's flag, the symbolic
value is lost.

I must admit when I look at the flag, I don't immediately see anything that makes me think, Ontario.

The natural environment is the first point of reference, and I would pick out the Great Lakes, White Pines (dominant forest further north), Trilliums (prov. flower and on most provincial ID cards).

I get that as opposed to Quebec there is an Anglo-Saxon element historically, but aside from the fact I'm not sure that's a good cultural touch point in today's Ontario, its also one I don't think of
as being reflected in the Union Jack. (the fleur-de-lis, is not the tri-colour)

Communicating other values w/o text can be a challenge.

So the environmental references make sense to me; and can be quickly recognized and be generally deemed inoffensive.

As such, while I would hardly describe it as a pressing priority, I don't think it would be a bad idea to replace the provincial flag.

I like the idea of incorporating a trillium as this is widely associated with Ontario now......

I'm not sure about a water reference, as the way that tends to appear on flags, would be across the bottom........the trillium shouldn't be floating on water..........

Flags need to stay simple and ideally, symmetrical.

I'm tempted by a trillium with one white pine on each side, the trillium edged by green so the background can be white.

I should note trilliums don't normally grow under pines...........they prefer oaks or beech..........but who said the thing had to be botanically correct?
 
Impartial Observer said:
Welcome to anyone who has picked up this forum thread to one of the more trivial discussions. I honestly didn't realise just how many of my fellow Canadians were insecure in their identity and had huge post-colonial chips on their shoulders. If I read 'we are not British' again, I will - honestly - wet myself laughing. For a country walking a fine cultural line between being Americans, that is absolutely priceless. One of the very few public icons of our distinctiveness is the flag of Ontario. Shock horror, the Union Jack is on it. That must mean we are British, just like Hawaiians are British too because they have a very similar flag. To those of you unable or unwilling to learn the slightest thing about our interesting and unique history, get a grip. To those of you, like me, who roll their eyes or drop their jaw at this simple minded discussion, take heed. Smart people are on your side.

To an outsider, one would never know that Canada is 150 years old. You see, the attempted debate on the Ontario flag is but a symptom of a wider problem that afflicts a certain type of person. In most spheres of Canadian life from politics, government, the law, education, religion, the armed forces, organised labour all the way down to our ever present pipe bands, the British influence has been fundamental to shaping modern Canada.

Yet, there is an inability amongst small elements of our society who cannot meaningfully engage with this legacy. British symbols, emblems and traditions are but colonial kindling for their nationalist bonfire. Yet, over 50 years after the adoption of our National Flag, casting aside our traditional symbols and emblems is less of a revolutionary act than one of significant cultural and historical vandalism. Our British heritage is part of our Canadian identity – regardless of ethnicity, religion or colour - they are not mutually exclusive. British (and French) emblems are legitimate Canadian symbols. Get over it.

We have the red and white Maple Leaf Flag that represents us all and declares to the wider world that we are Canadians. But if the National Flag reflects our current society, our provincial and territorial flags can reflect our specific histories and origins. And it is the diversity of the latter flags that show how special and unique we are as a country. Getting rid of our current provincial flag out of some post-colonial spite vastly increases the risk of hollowing out our history and our national story – we would lose what makes us unique and distinct. Effectively, we would be erasing the 49th parallel border.

The actions of a mature nation secure in its identity would be to leave well enough alone and to fly our provincial flags with pride. We are Canadian and proud of it.
Click to expand...

When in the first paragraph you managed to describe everyone with an opinion which differs from yours as being insecure, having a chip on their shoulder, unwilling to learn, and simple minded, with yourself being among the "smart people", I stopped reading. Life is too short for that sort of thing.

You're not a good advocate for your position when your posts are so off-putting.
 
tumblr_mtzsut0tAO1sjwg5lo1_500.gif
Skeezix said:
When in the first paragraph you managed to describe everyone with an opinion which differs from yours as being insecure, having a chip on their shoulder, unwilling to learn, and simple minded, with yourself being among the "smart people", I stopped reading. Life is too short for that sort of thing.

You're not a good advocate for your position when your posts are so off-putting.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
CodeMonkey said:
It was. The fact that Ontario never had a official flag before, and it only uses part of the official Coat of Arms for Ontario, shows how fast they could throw something together to spite the removal of the Union Jack.



Nova Scotia flag is a inverted version of the St Andrew's Cross, but its different enough that its not considers the same flag of Scotland.

But we've always had a symbol of our British heritage in Ontario's Coat of Arms, if you looked closely, the Cross of Saint George is right above the three maple leafs, and has been there since 1868 to denote the same thing the Union Jack does.

In short, having the Union Jack will always be part of our history, but we must move on.
Click to expand...

Speaking of the Nova Scotia flag, search 'Russian Navy Ensign' in Google.
 
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