News   Oct 02, 2024
 162     0 
News   Oct 02, 2024
 347     0 
News   Oct 02, 2024
 713     0 

Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system...

Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Splitting the vote doesn't matter when you have a proportional voting system.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Yes it does, because it takes away people who are, for example, concerned about the environment from the mainstream parties. A large number of parties is also difficult to co-ordinate. One maverick one or two-member "party" can derail a whole government.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Isn't that the democratic right of those voters? I also doubt there could be that many such parties that could exceed the threshold. The Green would have a hard time of it, and they are extremely well-established.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

One maverick one or two-member "party" can derail a whole government.

How? The NDP would love to have those instructions because until getting "the balance of power" they haven't been able to steer the federal government's agenda much at all. I don't see how a two seat party can derail the government. They will say a few words in question period, maybe be hyped by the media, but in the end the government can easily continue on with the agenda or more established parties.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Political parties with little change of ever forming a government need not be driven by an interest in steering government agenda; they may be interested solely in preventing government agenda from being enacted.

Let's not loose sight that this is politics and not public management.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Governments will be responsible for having their legislation passed, and that will require compromise with opposition parties. They will likely be more willing to do so with mainstream parties that are amenable to their position, and not so much nutjob parties that will have minimal influence.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Compromise is one of those words that always sounds nice in theory, but it can make a mess out of policy or program initiatives.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Compromise always happens, even within parties. Sure, it means everyone is dissatisfied, but that's to be expected.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Although I agree with it in theory, there are so many problems that can arise from PR. I just see insider corruption, "old boys club" appointments and public disappointment written all over it. Party appointees to fill the PR portion may be set up to bring in more minorities, but it will see abuse a la Michel Fortier. "I am the leaders friend, I didnt want to have to bother fighting an election, but I am a minister nonetheless".

In my view, the best solution would be to have a ballot rank candidates in each riding, much like party leaders are selected at party conventions. From one ballot, you drop the lowest ranking candidate, then the next lowest etc until you get a candidate with 50%. This allows each riding to maintain 1 representative better chosen by the public. It also stops a glut of additional MPP's from being added to the payroll. Do we want our taxes to go to paying an additional 30 or 40 MPP's who vote themselves a 25% pay increase?
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

" The main criticism of PR is not that extremists gain influence, but rather that it produces unstable minority governments. It requires the political culture to change somewhat, and perhaps a more consensus-forming approach to developing a budget."

This is a common misconception. In fact, much of the instability of minority governments in our system arises from the FPTP system itself. In a FPTP system every election in some sense a lottery, as even a tremendously small shift in voter preferences can swing an election in one party's favour, if the concentration and allocation of those added votes falls right for that party (something which in the long run likely evens out and thus is "fluke-ish"). The opposition knows that even, say, a 5% shift in voting can propel it from being an opposition in a minority gov't to forming a majority government (swings like this have happened before). The opposition has an incentive in toppling the minority government every time that it gains in the polls, however small a gain it is. This incentive is removed in a proportional system, because a small shift in votes will translate to a small shift in seats, allowing the parties to temporarily forget their electioneering opportunism and focus on consocialization and coalition-forming.

The notion that minority governments are inherently less effective than majorities is also something of a misconception, and there is research that would suggest that minority governments are on the average just as capable of "getting things done" (counterintuitive as the idea may be) as majority governments.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

I agree that even the candidates filling the proportional represenation seats must be endorsed by the electorate in some way. It shouldn't be party brass that pick their favourites.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

This is a common misconception. In fact, much of the instability of minority governments in our system arises from the FPTP system itself.

A minority is a minority - regardless of the voting system that creates it. Stability, cooperation, consensus - these all depend on the parties, the members and the issues that have been central to that particular election, so no specific voting system will determine how well a government or a parliament functions.

Altering the system of representation will not automatically guarantee stability. It is an effort to provide more fair voter representation. Let's not confuse the two.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

"A minority is a minority - regardless of the voting system that creates it. Stability, cooperation, consensus - these all depend on the parties, the members and the issues that have been central to that particular election, so no specific voting system will determine how well a government or a parliament functions."

That's not rational. One would argue that parties act with a mind towards the results of the next election. Minorities will be stable unless there are wide shifts in public support such that parties stand to gain a significant number of seats. In FPTP, parties can gain many seats with only a slight perturbation in public support.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Not rational, huh?

You would appear to be confusing minority governments with coalition governments. The two are exclusive. You continue to confuse the electoral system with party politics as well. That's an error. If I were you, I'd be careful about tossing out the word rational as a means of judgement. Politics is not based on objective rationality. If you had any experience in politics or government, you would know this.

Even majority governments can collapse from the inside when there is a breakdown of coherence in terms of policy or political direction, or when factionalism grows within, or when any one of a number of issues come to dominate a portion of the membership that are rejected by others. So if majority governments can degenerate to the point of being ineffectual, or seizing up in gridlock, minority governments can also become grossly disfunctional if the right circumstances arise.

Yes, parties act with a mind towards the next election. But many MP's discover that it is one thing to be an effective member of the opposition, and something completely different to be a member of the government with ministerial or departmental responsibilities. Sometimes it is easier to get your message out when you don't have to back it up with action. That being said, you don't have build a consensus to effect change.

That's part of how politics works, whether you like it or not.
 
Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

How does anything you mention indicate that minorities are necessarily a bad thing compared to artificial majorities elected under FPTP? Minorities are less stable under FPTP than they would be under some proportional system, necessarily, since it takes wider changes in public support to make an election worth undertaking for opposition parties. I don't confuse any of the things you say I do.
 

Back
Top