Ontario Budget Cut and Transit Expansion

[Second_in_pie]

Also, we should compare passenger use a little here! The Yonge line blows a lot of the lines mentioned out of the water ... in North America and some parts of Europe.

But I guess that's all the more incentive for more.

Yes, the YUS blows many, many other subway lines out of the water. Considering that we have so much space to expand the system and alleviate that line while expanding service to the core and other dense areas, attracting many, many new riders, I don't understand why basically nothing's happening.

The big question is that of funding. Until the federal and governments becomes really responsible for transit funding, Metrolinx will have to get creative with funding solutions.
I think that using highway and arterial tolls using GPS technology is by far the best solution and isn't actually that hard a sell. However, I think it would make sense at least for a flat toll on the DVP south of Eglinton and the Gardiner East of Roncesvales. That sort of quarantines off the general downtown area where, if you're going to be going there then it'll be fairly straightforward to take the Go train in instead. By using 407-style tolls, that fee could just be added on. I think that if you do that, it'll make a big difference. If you just take a thousand dollars a year from all the people that commute from Richmond Hill to Downtown, and maybe a couple thousand for the crazies that come from Oshawa or Newmarket, not only does it provide an incentive to switch to the Go train, but it'll give a huge amount of money for Metrolinx to work with while keeping the system relatively fair.

I think on top of that, create a separate GGH gas tax, which encompasses the bigger GGH municipalities (GTA, Barrie, Hamilton, K-W and Guelph.) This tax would encourage higher fuel efficiency and new fuel sources, and would act as an alleviator for the provincial gas tax. Those taxes could then have the money go straight into the rural areas, building up small town bus service and maybe a provincial interurban and rural transit service. Also, tolling the 400-series Highways, especially the 401, 402, and 403, would be a logical way to fund HSR along the Quebec-Windsor corridor.

 

[allabootmatt]

Indeed. If there is a tiny silver lining to McGuinty's absurd broken promise, it's that it might move up by several years some adult discussion of alternative funding methods: tolls, tax increment financing, gas tax and sales tax surcharges, etc. All of these are widespread in that supposed Eldorado of automobile-driven capitalism, the U.S., and the fact that they're treated as radioactive in Toronto is bizarre. Happily, I think opinion is shifting somewhat--when Karen Stintz is shopping a parking-lot tax I think it's clear things have changed a bit.

As an aside, I have to say that some recent transit use has warmed me up to Transit City a fair bit. I've had cause to ride a couple of the outer-city tramways in Paris to get to suburban meetings recently, and have come away pretty impressed by the flexibility of LRT as a mode. You have the same vehicles running on the street, in tunnels, and on old railways ROWs, with POP boarding and next-train displays. And with Paris' small Metro cars (think Montreal) the trams are practically the same size. I know TC is flawed, the TTC terrible at project implementation, etc. etc. But I think LRT as a mode has huge promise for Toronto, and so I'm aghast at Queen's Park's sudden reversal.

I know this probably goes without saying, but writing to one's MPP, plus the Premier and Kathleen Wynne, certainly can't hurt.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I will agree, I think that LRT is a great mode for Toronto, GTA and GGH in general. Combined with real Regional Rail Go service and some creative LRT workings (including a lot of LRT subway,) I could actually see LRT being the dominant transit type in the city. There's only two problems with the way things were going with Transit City

Firstly, it was the fact that as much as LRTs would have been great, you still need a core RT network based on high capacity subways, especially in the denser parts of the city. Though that's just bad planning, which is why it will be good to reconsider things. I think that Metrolinx should, right now, start the planning to allocate the funding they currently have to the best benefit possible. That means focusing on the DRL and SRT alternatives, which are both needed ASAP. DRL because in a few more years of natural ridership growth, the YUS is actually going to be totally above capacity, not to mention all the downtown development that is basically asking for the DRL. SRT because in about 5 years, over 40k riders from Scarborough a day will go from a reasonably fast and efficient form of transportation to express busses slowly zig-zagging along down to Kennedy.

Secondly, is the funding. MO2020 was intended to be the fix-all for the GGH's transit, yet that $20 billion would, unfortunately, just be skimming the top. We need a fully electrified Go system running on EMUs every 20 minutes on all lines within 20 years, LRTs and BRTs to radiate off from that, and a core subway network mostly within the Toronto area to provide a backbone. Tally this all up, and $20 billion can't provide it. Provincial and Federal funding would obviously help a lot, but there needs to be a steady stream of income coming in throughout the region (nobody is exempt!) to fund all the transit expansions that are needed to get the region back on it's feet in terms of transportation.

 

[MisterF]

Munich - Olympics (Accelerated for 1972)
Frankfurt - Olympics (Accelerated for 1972)
Washington - Capital
Prague - Capital

That leaves Philadelphia, who built their transit off the backs of Reading Railroad and Pennsylvania Railroad (remember Monopoly?). The biggest restriction we've had on our system is that we are operating in mixed-traffic on freight owned corridors (speaking regionally as GO was created around the same time as SEPTA).

Sorry but this sounds like good old fashioned Canadian defeatism. We always seem to come up with excuses why we can't do something. Or maybe it's Ontario defeatism - Montreal already has a bigger subway system, and Calgary and Vancouver will soon have bigger rapid transit systems than Toronto. And in those cities current expansion has nothing to do with the Olympics. Ottawa, the national capital which happens to be in Ontario, hasn't built anything substantial despite years of planning. Point being that Toronto is being passed by even in Canada, and that adequate subway systems can be built without being a national capital or getting the Olympics.

Higher per capita wealth makes construction more expensive, not less.

True, but it also makes us more able to pay for new lines. Labour may cost more, but parts like a TBM shouldn't. And to use Madrid as an example again, they save costs by not overbuilding their lines - much smaller trains and stations, few large concourses or centre platforms, etc.

 

[ssiguy2]

Very true but within reason. Canada Line was built at $150 mil/km which includes 10 km of subway and a large bridge over Fraser and tunneling under False Creek. The labour is no cheaper than in Vancouver and god knows that land costs are twice that of Toronto. Remember that the CL is a full Metro system using standard Metro/subway tech and cars. There is NO reason why Toronto can't come in at the same price. The one short coming of CL is the length of the stations...................just 40 metres which is only 2 subway cars. All can be extended to accomodate 3 cars but even so. Yes it has the capaccity of 3 subway cars at every 90 seconds but after that Vancouver is screwed having to build another line as a relief line of many billions to redo all the stations. 5 car trains should be more than enough for any foreseeable future running at 90 second intervals for Toronto. These large 150 metre stations are not needed. I can't imagine even in 50 years any line being busier than Yonge so Yonge capacity simply not needed.
Toronto is also going to get rid of this truly bizzare idea of not having Rail ROW/ elevated sections. I swear to god it's the only place on the planet that tunnels in the burbs.
That said I can not wanting to try new methods and technology. Elevated trains is kinda crazy......next thing you know they will want to run them under ground!

 

[taal]

... However, I think it would make sense at least for a flat toll on the DVP south of Eglinton and the Gardiner East of Roncesvales ...

This is the last thing that should happen ... a toll is OK ... but just in the 416, ... we have enough problems as is with the commerical tax differential, this might just be the tipping point ...

If it's just the inner 416 it's wouldn't be as bad, as you suggestion, south of Eglinton. Otherwise, basically the outer 416 would be in big trouble.

I'm not even convinced the inner 416 could support this ... it may just be reason enough for more companies to flee, and seeing how the outer 416 isn't an option, they'd go to the 905.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ You don't like a toll for travel concerning the core?

The way I reasoned it out is that the downtown Core has got to be the easiest place to get to anywhere in Canada. You can take the subway, and if not, every single Go train will take you straight to Union. If you're far from either, it'll still be quicker to drive there than to drive downtown. People need to start realizing this, and with increased Go service, there will be no excuse. If you wanna take your car downtown when there's a myriad of other options available, you should pay for it.

And the reason I like all around tolls based on either GPS or just 407-type systems is that it allows tolls to be dynamic. You're right, just putting tolls on the Gardiner and DVP would be quite bad for the core. But if you have tolls everywhere in the GGH and then slightly higher tolls on the Gardiner and DVP (as might be the case for other highways,) it's not as dangerous for businesses in the core. However, that cost will still be there and people will have more of an incentive to take mass transit.

 

[kettal]

Just tax all parking spaces and be done with it. It's like road tolls just without the complications and overhead.

 

[nfitz]

The labour is no cheaper than in Vancouver ...

I thought that the company building the Canada Line brought in cheap labour from China, and paid them significantly below the going wage. Is that what you suggest?

There were very little land costs; they really cheaped out on the entrances; worse than in Toronto.

 

[valkoholic]

Tolling all GTA highways will help the core, because the core doesn't rely on cars nearly as much as the crap they're building in the York / Peel / Durham employment districts. That's where job growth is happening right now and it's based on free roads and abundent, cheap parking. Making driving to work more expensive accross the baord helps areas less reliant on cars.

My vote is for tolls over parking charges and gas tax, because tolls can be easily timed to discourgae peak-hour commuting. It could cost $10 to drive downtown at 8am during the week, but be $2 on a sunday morning.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Parking taxes are an obvious place to start, though. If I'm remembering the numbers I've seen correctly, you could double Toronto's parking rates and they still wouldn't be out of line with other North American cities.

 

[kettal]

Tolling all GTA highways will help the core, because the core doesn't rely on cars nearly as much as the crap they're building in the York / Peel / Durham employment districts. That's where job growth is happening right now and it's based on free roads and abundent, cheap parking. Making driving to work more expensive accross the baord helps areas less reliant on cars.

My vote is for tolls over parking charges and gas tax, because tolls can be easily timed to discourgae peak-hour commuting. It could cost $10 to drive downtown at 8am during the week, but be $2 on a sunday morning.

Then have a tax on all business parking spots in the GTA. If you really want to change peak hour, discount the parking for those arriving before 7 AM or after 10 AM.

These GPS trackers are a privacy concern; 407-style systems are subject to billing errors and hacking. I'm a firm believer in the simplest solution being preferable.

 

[Fresh Start]

Secondly, is the funding. MO2020 was intended to be the fix-all for the GGH's transit, yet that $20 billion would, unfortunately, just be skimming the top. We need a fully electrified Go system running on EMUs every 20 minutes on all lines within 20 years, LRTs and BRTs to radiate off from that, and a core subway network mostly within the Toronto area to provide a backbone. Tally this all up, and $20 billion can't provide it. Provincial and Federal funding would obviously help a lot, but there needs to be a steady stream of income coming in throughout the region (nobody is exempt!) to fund all the transit expansions that are needed to get the region back on it's feet in terms of transportation.

Toronto alone needs the $20 billion, that's the problem. Trying to split a pie evenly amongst 17 different municipalities means that each party walks away from negotiations with very little to show their constituents. I don't think its a lack of money issue at all as the Govt of Canada spent over $32 billion last year in Transportaation and Communciations projects, it's trying to please too many interests all at once.

I think that the only lasting solution is to toll the highways... all of them. If it runs through the 416, it should be subject to a toll. That way everybody's being treated the same way and there's little alternative for motorists to paying the toll if one wants to enter the City. Let's look at the average total daily usage (Annual average daily traffic) of all the designated highways:

Highway 401 between 373,700 and 431,900 AADT
DVP 320,000 AADT
Highway 427 311,400 AADT
Highway 404 250,800 AADT
Gardiner Exwy 218,530 AADT
Highway 400/Black Creek Dr 176,800 AADT
Highway 409 98,400 AADT
Allen Exwy 65,000 AADT
Highway 2A 32,200 AADT
---
Total: 1,905,030 vehicles daily

So if each driver was tolled even once per day at a flat rate of $5, that would still generate over $9.5 million in revenue. Times that by 365 days and it comes in at nearly $3.5 billion every single year. Hello DRL. Hello Eglinton Crosstown subway line. If the tolls yield nearly as much profits as this projection, then by no means would it have to be a permanent structure (10 years producing $35 billion in public transit funding could more than cover building virtually every subway on the docket).

If people want good things, they need to be willing to pay into it and stop relying on higher gov't for bailouts. It's within our own abilities to fund high cailbre transit, instead of laywaiting half-handed temporary fixes.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I think that the only lasting solution is to toll the highways... all of them. If it runs through the 416, it should be subject to a toll. That way everybody's being treated the same way and there's little alternative for motorists to paying the toll if one wants to enter the City. Let's look at the average total daily usage (Annual average daily traffic) of all the designated highways:

Highway 401 between 373,700 and 431,900 AADT
DVP 320,000 AADT
Highway 427 311,400 AADT
Highway 404 250,800 AADT
Gardiner Exwy 218,530 AADT
Highway 400/Black Creek Dr 176,800 AADT
Highway 409 98,400 AADT
Allen Exwy 65,000 AADT
Highway 2A 32,200 AADT
---
Total: 1,905,030 vehicles daily

So if each driver was tolled even once per day at a flat rate of $5, that would still generate over $9.5 million in revenue. Times that by 365 days and it comes in at nearly $3.5 billion every single year

do those numbers account for the same vehicle travelling the same highway twice or more and/or travel on multiple highways? if you charged a flat rate per day, because the total "unique" vehicle number would differ from the total you provided, it would change your revenue figure.

is it "1,905,030" in unique vehicles?

if not, it's safe to say that the number would be at least cut in half due to round trips. then you can reduce the number even further if the same car travels on more than one of those listed roads per day. multiple trips would reduce the number even further. you also need to account for drivers who avoid those roads because they don't want to pay the toll which would reduce the figure even more.

the only way to achieve that 3.5 billion dollar figure would be to toll $5 per listed road per use.

 

[sixrings]

I dont know why we dont toll at the borders of Toronto. So pickering... Sauga... richmond Hill... right before the option of turning onto the 410 the 403 or continuing west on the 401 has to be one of the biggest areas near the airport. Not all drivers are going downtown. If we put parking taxes in it would have to include the suburbs as well (HOW ABOUT A PARKING TAX AT MALLS? 1$ to park) . Otherwise we might get companies moving to yonge and sheppard or Kipling... OR 905!!!