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OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

Why do all the mega-casino owners focus on these giant monolithic casinos? Maybe I'm totally out to lunch here, but zone one of our Victorian strips for gambling. Allow for the opening of small venue gambling houses, poker dens, small members-only black-tie casinos.... allow back room black jack in bars/pubs, encourage a few burlesque clubs to open up, purposefully create a bit of a seedy vibe in the area... maybe add in somewhere guys (and gals) can go smoke their cigars over a good scotch. Privately run smaller establishments that pay their taxes into OLG, that meet the street, surrounded by neighbourhood restaurants and bars. Wouldn't this fit in better with Toronto than a giant Vegas style casino?
 
I am not against the notion of a casino, but let's cut to the chase here - how many dollars are they bringing to the table in terms of tax revenues and is the OLG and proponent willing to enter into binding legal agreements with the city to back that up? If not, no thanks. And while we're at it, show us your plans BEFORE anyone approves anything - should that be the gold standard of decision-making?

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
I am not against the notion of a casino, but let's cut to the chase here - how many dollars are they bringing to the table in terms of tax revenues and is the OLG and proponent willing to enter into binding legal agreements with the city to back that up? If not, no thanks. And while we're at it, show us your plans BEFORE anyone approves anything - should that be the gold standard of decision-making?

AoD
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I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the current "decision set" was does Toronto, as a city/government/community, want to open the doors to any form of Casino development. I thought that decision was being based primarily on moral/philosophical grounds. If that is the case, I don't think "money" has any business (inadvertent pun) in the discussion. "Toronto" is either opposed to casino gambling or it is not.....morals/philosophies do not have a price attached to them.

Once Toronto (and any GTA municipality for that matter) makes its decision (and presuming that answer is "yes" for a minute) then they would say to the OLG.....we are open to consider a casino development....now bring us your proposals for a) the site b) the size/scope of the development and c) what's in it for us as a city/community. At that time, once morals/philosophy have been decided on and moved out of the equation, then Toronto (along wit the other municipalities) can judge which (if any) of the proposals offers enough to go ahead.

It may be a bit messy/slow but I think this is the appropriate decision process. I really have no time for politicians that say "I am vehemently opposed to "X" but if you give me enough money I can get over that".
 
TOAreaFan:

Let's not kid ourselves here - it's been portrayed as a moral issue, but deep down this is about money. Recall that the political proponents are selling it not on morality, but on money. Hence the point about cutting to the chase - we know that there will be positive and negative impacts from allowing a casino to operate, shouldn't decision makers have ALL the information at their disposal to make that judgement - not to mention, ways to ensure that the decision one way or another doesn't end up being a moving target for the proponents and negates the benefits for the city? To say that one should decide now with piecemeal information and then wash their hands off the whole affair is a bit too convenient - not to mention being a rather poor way to ensure public stewardship of the issue. Besides, once you said yes, does the city has any legitimate levers to " judge which (if any) of the proposals offers enough to go ahead" and not expose itself to potential legal troubles for saying no afterwards? One should never sign blank cheques.

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
TOAreaFan:

Let's not kid ourselves here - it's been portrayed as a moral issue, but deep down this is about money. Recall that the political proponents are selling it not on morality, but on money.
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I should have been clearer, yes the proponents are positioning this as a monetary decision. "the financial benefits will allow the city to do so much more"....but, to be fair, I think the opponents are not positioning their opposition in such a fashion....at least that is not what I am hearing. I don't hear Vaughan or Chow or anyone saying "I don't think a casino belongs in Downtown Toronto....unless you can show me enough money to change my view".

AlvinofDiaspar said:
Hence the point about cutting to the chase - we know that there will be positive and negative impacts from allowing a casino to operate, shouldn't decision makers have ALL the information at their disposal to make that judgement - not to mention, ways to ensure that the decision one way or another doesn't end up being a moving target for the proponents and negates the benefits for the city? To say that one should decide now with piecemeal information and then wash their hands off the whole affair is a bit too convenient - not to mention being a rather poor way to ensure public stewardship of the issue.
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No one is saying that at all. The decision being made at the present is whether or not Toronto will even consider a casino proposal. It is a first step in a tiered decision process. There is no handwashing....it just moves the discussion from the OLG saying they want a GTA casino to whether or not the City of Toronto is part of the next step of discussion.



AlvinofDiaspar said:
Besides, once you said yes, does the city has any legitimate levers to " judge which (if any) of the proposals offers enough to go ahead" and not expose itself to potential legal troubles for saying no afterwards? One should never sign blank cheques.

AoD
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All that anyone can expect out of this is a decision by Toronto to agree to be considered as the site of the GTA casino that OLG wants. If the answer is yes it will be in the form of "Toronto council has decided to move to the next step of discussions with regards to the OLG locating a casino in its municipal boundries. This is not an approval of a casino. Any approval will be contingent on Toronto council being satisfied by the OLG and their private sector partners in this venture on matters including (but not limited to) a) the site of the casino; b) the size and scope of the casino development and its impact on the surrounding neighbourhood and the city as a whole and c) the package of benefits, financial and otherwise, offered to the City of Toronto in relation to the approval, if any, of the specific casino development. The public will be consulted at every step of this important, and lengthy, approval process.".

There are no blank cheques.
 
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There'll be another proposal coming on Monday - this time from Sands CEO Michael Leven
 
"Toronto council has decided to move to the next step of discussions with regards to the OLG locating a casino in its municipal boundries. This is not an approval of a casino. Any approval will be contingent on Toronto council being satisfied by the OLG and their private sector partners in this venture on matters including (but not limited to) a) the site of the casino; b) the size and scope of the casino development and its impact on the surrounding neighbourhood and the city as a whole and c) the package of benefits, financial and otherwise, offered to the City of Toronto in relation to the approval, if any, of the specific casino development. The public will be consulted at every step of this important, and lengthy, approval process.".
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This bit is very murky. I've tried to find out what, exactly, the City must decide. I haven't had much luck, which is a concern in itself - why are the regulations etc so hard to find/decipher?

Anyway, as I understand it so far, the City only gets to decide yes/no to a casino. Location, design, terms & conditions, and maybe the hosting fees, are all up to the OLG. I'm not 100% sure that the City's yes/no decision truly has any influence. I think the OLG could go ahead and put a casino in Toronto regardless.

I could very well be wrong. If anyone has links etc to reliable info on this, I'd love to see them.
 
TOareafan:

I should have been clearer, yes the proponents are positioning this as a monetary decision. "the financial benefits will allow the city to do so much more"....but, to be fair, I think the opponents are not positioning their opposition in such a fashion....at least that is not what I am hearing. I don't hear Vaughan or Chow or anyone saying "I don't think a casino belongs in Downtown Toronto....unless you can show me enough money to change my view".
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First of all, I am not necessarily against the idea, so quoting me what the opponents to the scheme base their opposition on is more or less irrelevant to my position of "where's the beef", which one would think that the political proponents would be far more interested in articulating since it is their modus operandi. So far, I am getting soundbites and talking points, and not a pathway to ensure their promises holds true.

No one is saying that at all. The decision being made at the present is whether or not Toronto will even consider a casino proposal. It is a first step in a tiered decision process. There is no handwashing....it just moves the discussion from the OLG saying they want a GTA casino to whether or not the City of Toronto is part of the next step of discussion.
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OLG hasn't been saying much other than talking points either. What mechanisms at the city level, for example, is there to ensure that any proposed facility can be held to scrutiny AND provide the level of benefits to the city as advertised? Vagueness is insufficient for a decision of such magnitude.

All that anyone can expect out of this is a decision by Toronto to agree to be considered as the site of the GTA casino that OLG wants. If the answer is yes it will be in the form of "Toronto council has decided to move to the next step of discussions with regards to the OLG locating a casino in its municipal boundries. This is not an approval of a casino. Any approval will be contingent on Toronto council being satisfied by the OLG and their private sector partners in this venture on matters including (but not limited to) a) the site of the casino; b) the size and scope of the casino development and its impact on the surrounding neighbourhood and the city as a whole and c) the package of benefits, financial and otherwise, offered to the City of Toronto in relation to the approval, if any, of the specific casino development. The public will be consulted at every step of this important, and lengthy, approval process.".

There are no blank cheques.
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No offense, but legally, what binding mechanisms are there on the part of the city if OLG decide to use a provincially owned site for said purpose?

AoD
 
Automation Gallery said:
I guess they could at Ontario Place without anyone having a say...
i think they have the last say on any provincial owned lands
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Except that they (OLG) have already said they will not locate a casino in a municipality that does not want one.....that is the one clear statement they have made.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
TOareafan:



First of all, I am not necessarily against the idea, so quoting me what the opponents to the scheme base their opposition on is more or less irrelevant to my position of "where's the beef", which one would think that the political proponents would be far more interested in articulating since it is their modus operandi. So far, I am getting soundbites and talking points, and not a pathway to ensure their promises holds true.
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I was simply stating why I don't think it is appropriate for the opponents to murky their stance by saying "we are against casinos....unless you show us a pile of cash"....they are either opposed to casinos in Toronto or not.


AlvinofDiaspar said:
OLG hasn't been saying much other than talking points either. What mechanisms at the city level, for example, is there to ensure that any proposed facility can be held to scrutiny AND provide the level of benefits to the city as advertised? Vagueness is insufficient for a decision of such magnitude.

No offense, but legally, what binding mechanisms are there on the part of the city if OLG decide to use a provincially owned site for said purpose?

AoD
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I do believe that municipalities still have to approve all developments (casino or not) and have the ultimate power in issuing, or not, building permits.
 
I do believe that municipalities still have to approve all developments (casino or not) and have the ultimate power in issuing, or not, building permits.[/QUOTE]

Except on the Exhibition Place grounds, where a zoning application would not be required - only a special Site Plan Approval process (The Exhibtion Grounds are effectively a grey zone from a planning approval perspective) .
 
I am leaning towards supporting the casino, but only of it is built on our terms, our conditions (whatever city hall agrees those are). In my opinion the city should tax gaming at a higher rate than other businesses to compensate for an disproportional burst of increased density and traffic and any negative social effects that may introduce (can't think of another business that brings in thousands of new people every day of the year, the current MTCC is a ghost town compared to the swaths of people this proposal will bring). DRL and rebuilding or repairing the Gardiner are high priority. Collecting ongoing revenue is preferred to one-time fees. The casino must be integrated into an entertainment complex rather than standalone, that way it's not 'gambling only'. It needs to be family friendly, give people place to sleep, to eat, to shop, watch a musical, grab some drinks. Tourism toronto could be setup to guide tourists with other things they can see or do in and around the neighbourhood and surrounding areas.
 
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