OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[AlvinofDiaspar]

coolcanadian:

You took that $5B quip as if it was one of the Ten Commandments. Personally I will take that with a grain of salt and say, show me the plans and the money instead. And in the context of this discussion, take note of what adma said:

Maybe not so much ridiculously garish casinos, but ridiculously garish images of casinos--after all, caehlan's posted photos of Melbourne's facility go a ways t/w bringing that place down to earth in a way that UTers can comprehend, without having to go all hysterically anti-casino-antiurbanism about it.

And yes, please don't use oversized fonts - it's like shouting.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

A 2000 room resort with convention space alone would be a great engine for future development. A huge entertainment complex is a great engine for future development also. The fact that only 5% of this will be a casino does not give u s a reason to pass on this opportunity.

I have, lately, been thinking of these numbers.....and, frankly, scratching my head a bit. If the casino is 200k s.f. and is 5% of the total....that means the total complex is 4 million square feet!! That is, indeed, huge (about 2.5 Eaton's Centres huge) and leaves a lot of non-casino space to fill!

I think we are getting a bit carried away in quoting those numbers as "facts".

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

CC -- out of curiousity, are you a gambler and/or destination casino habitué? Do you go to the casino at the CNE, or Rama, or Niagara Falls, or Montreal? Do you prefer Las Vegas or Macau to the local 'destination' casinos, and if so, why? What's the attraction for you -- the other entertainment or the games?

I've been once to Las Vegas, on a corporate boondoggle. Lost a few bucks at the blackjack tables (actually, went up big then predictably gave it all back plus a little), played a round of golf at a beautiful course, ate a very nice dinner, had a massage, ogled a few bikinis poolside. Quite frankly, I would have been much happier with the rest of the weekend without the hours wasted at blackjack.

Long story short, since I'm not a gambler, I have little interest in a Toronto casino. The shows/golf/restos are already here. So -- without resorting to the 'I want a casino to raise money so I pay less tax' argument -- what do you get out of a casino being built in Toronto?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing from someone who would actually enjoy the casino. My impression, so far, is that the 'dirty secret' of the casino wars is that neither those for nor against actually would use the casino. I'd be happy to have my impression corrected.

 

[AKS]

I have, lately, been thinking of these numbers.....and, frankly, scratching my head a bit. If the casino is 200k s.f. and is 5% of the total....that means the total complex is 4 million square feet!! That is, indeed, huge (about 2.5 Eaton's Centres huge) and leaves a lot of non-casino space to fill!

I think we are getting a bit carried away in quoting those numbers as "facts".

coolcanadian is a bit over zealous. But let's not close our minds to the potential. Let's take a look at the winning plans first and go from there. There's no point in arguing until everyone is blue in the face. There's basically nothing to discuss until there's some solid plans made. However, it's best not to just say "no" before any detailed information is provided. Things like "anything built will be horrible", "The casino will ruin Toronto", "It won't be as big as they say" and flatly banning casinos is jumping the gun. Let's be open-minded about this.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Let's be open-minded about this.

AKS -- same question as I asked CC. Would you use the casino? How much? With friends? Would relatives come visit you more, so they could hit the casino?

 

[MadMax]

CC -- out of curiousity, are you a gambler and/or destination casino habitué? Do you go to the casino at the CNE, or Rama, or Niagara Falls, or Montreal? Do you prefer Las Vegas or Macau to the local 'destination' casinos, and if so, why? What's the attraction for you -- the other entertainment or the games?

I've been once to Las Vegas, on a corporate boondoggle. Lost a few bucks at the blackjack tables (actually, went up big then predictably gave it all back plus a little), played a round of golf at a beautiful course, ate a very nice dinner, had a massage, ogled a few bikinis poolside. Quite frankly, I would have been much happier with the rest of the weekend without the hours wasted at blackjack.

Long story short, since I'm not a gambler, I have little interest in a Toronto casino. The shows/golf/restos are already here. So -- without resorting to the 'I want a casino to raise money so I pay less tax' argument -- what do you get out of a casino being built in Toronto?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing from someone who would actually enjoy the casino. My impression, so far, is that the 'dirty secret' of the casino wars is that neither those for nor against actually would use the casino. I'd be happy to have my impression corrected.

Ahhh, I think the thousands of players that have to play illegal poker games throughout the city of Toronto every day would very much appreciate it. Also having to go to Port Perry or Brantford whenever you want to play in a bigger buy-in tournament is a pain. I would definitely play the no limit hold em cash games and tournaments that the new casino would offer. I think having the option to drive 5 minutes to a tournament rather than the 1 - 1 1/2 hour drive to reach a poker room would be ideal. I've played in a few underground spots throughout this city that I would never go back to because of their shadiness. Also, a new top notch casino would bring with it major WPT tournaments that would bring in the best of the best poker players throughout the world. I think for a regular cash game and tournament player who's had some modest success in poker, I would very much appreciate a new casino. Who know's, my semi-pro poker status may even change to full out pro if I ever hit the big one

 

[TOareaFan]

coolcanadian is a bit over zealous. But let's not close our minds to the potential. Let's take a look at the winning plans first and go from there. There's no point in arguing until everyone is blue in the face. There's basically nothing to discuss until there's some solid plans made. However, it's best not to just say "no" before any detailed information is provided. Things like "anything built will be horrible", "The casino will ruin Toronto", "It won't be as big as they say" and flatly banning casinos is jumping the gun. Let's be open-minded about this.

I am not closing my mind...I am quite open to the idea (pretty opposed to it being at OP...but that ship seems to have sailed anyway).....I just think that the zeal of the discussion/arguments has to be tempered (on both sides) for it to be a meaningful exchange of ideas. One of the ways to do that (IMO) is to "gut check" statements people make before we record them as "fact". I don't think we get (or need) 2,000 additional hotel rooms nor do we get (or need) this to be a 4 million square foot complex.....nor does the casino have to be limited to 5%.....at 10 or 15% (maybe even higher) we still get the idea that the proponents are building more than "just a casino".

 

[Ice_Burn]

Well if completely screwing up commutes into downtown (more so than they already are) and putting a giant tourist complex in a place with inadequate transit makes MadMax into a professional poker player, well sign me up

 

[MadMax]

^^^ The point is, being able to access safe and sound poker games in a nice and safe environment would definitely be appreciated by the thousands of players that grind their living throughout the GTA as well as the casual player who may play poker once or twice a month. Daniel Negreaunu a local legend from Toronto in NL hold em poker would do wonders for this as an ambassador for the game!

 

[MadMax]

If a casino is built in Toronto, it would be packed every day! Port Perry, Brantford, probably Rama too would cease to exist.

 

[AKS]

AKS -- same question as I asked CC. Would you use the casino? How much? With friends? Would relatives come visit you more, so they could hit the casino?

I don't go to casinos. But just because I don't doesn't mean others don't either. I have friends in NY who fly to Las Vegas or drive down to Atlantic City to gamble. I have also heard from my friends in Toronto that there are underground casinos in Toronto. So, it seems many people do gamble even if I don't. And I've seen tons of tour buses that drive Asians to Niagara Falls to gamble.

Well if completely screwing up commutes into downtown (more so than they already are) and putting a giant tourist complex in a place with inadequate transit makes MadMax into a professional poker player, well sign me up

I think if an entertainment complex gets built, there will be better transit to serve people going there. If there's demand, they city will have to build public transit there.

 

[coolcanadian]

CC -- out of curiousity, are you a gambler and/or destination casino habitué? Do you go to the casino at the CNE, or Rama, or Niagara Falls, or Montreal? Do you prefer Las Vegas or Macau to the local 'destination' casinos, and if so, why? What's the attraction for you -- the other entertainment or the games?

I've been once to Las Vegas, on a corporate boondoggle. Lost a few bucks at the blackjack tables (actually, went up big then predictably gave it all back plus a little), played a round of golf at a beautiful course, ate a very nice dinner, had a massage, ogled a few bikinis poolside. Quite frankly, I would have been much happier with the rest of the weekend without the hours wasted at blackjack.

Long story short, since I'm not a gambler, I have little interest in a Toronto casino. The shows/golf/restos are already here. So -- without resorting to the 'I want a casino to raise money so I pay less tax' argument -- what do you get out of a casino being built in Toronto?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing from someone who would actually enjoy the casino. My impression, so far, is that the 'dirty secret' of the casino wars is that neither those for nor against actually would use the casino. I'd be happy to have my impression corrected.

No, I do not gamble. I have been to Vegas too, and there are many more activities than just the casinos. If this was in a suburb, I would never go there (because of what it would be). As an entertainment complex, it could be used by people who don't gamble. Goto see a Cirque show, ride a ferris wheel, swim in a really cool pool, goto the largest spa in the city, arcades, and other stuff like that, for example.

I would never actually gamble there. Maybe spend $20 on a slot machine for fun.

However, I know many people who do gamble. They would love to have a high end resort, like in Vegas, in Toronto. It would stop people from going to Vegas, but it would also attract others to come here. It is evident that the casino would be busy.

I think that this is just what Toronto needs for tourism. It would attract people here, and give them a reason to explore the rest of the city.

No city needs a 2000 room hotel with convention space. However, it will provide jobs and attract tourists.

If a casino is built in Toronto, it would be packed every day! Port Perry, Brantford, probably Rama too would cease to exist.

So? Just because Rama and Brantford would close down/not be as busy is not a reason to not do this. This would likely provide more jobs than all three of those combined. And have a greater economic impact. We cannot limit ourselves because of smaller things in other cities.

I think if an entertainment complex gets built, there will be better transit to serve people going there. If there's demand, they city will have to build public transit there.

I agree that, wherever this is built, transit will be improved. MGM has commented and said they want to have ttc and all transit options available.

 

[BurlOak]

I think if an entertainment complex gets built, there will be better transit to serve people going there. If there's demand, they city will have to build public transit there.

If Toronto was smart, they would realize that the Province wants to build a casino at the Ex or Ontario Place. They should be making transit one of the conditions of acceptance. A DRL to Exhibition Place could be negotiated if we play the cards right.

 

[coolcanadian]

If Toronto was smart, they would realize that the Province wants to build a casino at the Ex or Ontario Place. They should be making transit one of the conditions of acceptance. A DRL to Exhibition Place could be negotiated if we play the cards right.

lets wait and see what happens




Another thing that I find funny: People comment saying Rama and Niagara will suffer. I would ilk ego start by saying I think Niagara's Casino will be fine, as it is a huge tourist destination. Rama and other places may suffer, but only to make way for more jobs.

It's kinda funny that some people say casino's are so bad, but if it were to close in Rama or another place further away it would be terrible to lose jobs. If a casino is so bad, then by building this mega one we may end up closing more in Ontario, giving us less of these terrible places. In addition, we will add more jobs.

Now of course that was a little sarcastic, but I just find it funny that "they are so bad, but the idea of them closing is terrible because people will lose jobs" even though way more jobs will be created.

 

[toraerach]

If Toronto was smart, they would realize that the Province wants to build a casino at the Ex or Ontario Place. They should be making transit one of the conditions of acceptance. A DRL to Exhibition Place could be negotiated if we play the cards right.

Why would the cash-strapped province sink billions of dollars into the DRL solely to get council approval for what's supposed to be a revenue-generating enterprise? There are good reasons for building the DRL, and the province may ultimately come round to funding it, but casinos probably won't (and shouldn't) factor into that decision.